Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

[Gtrjunior]

Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

I hope you can get this part straightened out, as well. Maybe if you pull the switch out and take some photos it might reveal the problem.

I do see strong evidence that there's ground loop, however.

Would modern wiring fix that issue?


What are you seeing that makes you suspect a ground loop? I’m not experiencing any noise issues...

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

I doubt '50s wiring is the reason you're losing fullness in the bridge-only position with the neck volume turned down, though I can't come up with an obvious reason.

Regarding the possible ground loop, I see two grounds going to the switch cavity, two coming from the jack cavity and one to the the bridge (or tailpiece). If there is a loop it doesn't mean it will be an issue, however.

 

[VinceT]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

It looks like (according to the pics), that the cap is just soldered between the middle and outer lugs if the pots?
What I think I’ll do is snip them off and see how it sounds. If I’m not digging it I’ll try a smaller value.

Yes, you can just snip off the blue caps on the volume pots to remove the treble bleed. 50s wiring should be enough. I might be tempted to keep the cap on the neck volume just in case, but see how your ears hear it.

Can’t help with the slight bleed between bridge and neck, sorry.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Jacew]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

They are audio taper. I went through 3 sets until I found the right ones.
I started with 500k audio taper...too bright and I wasn’t liking the taper. They were from RS guitarworks, so I was surprised that I didn’t like them. They have a great reputation.
Then I went with Gibson 300k linear and hated them.
Then I went with with guitarelectronics.com 250k audio taper and liked them a lot. That’s what’s in there now.
For me, I like to be able to just nudge the volume down a bit to control any feedback on high gain settings. This way, the sound is still gainy but but I’m not feeding back during moments of silence.

250k has smoother taper.

Neat trick I've found is to adjust the taper of pots with a resistor between input and output lugs. I use 100k with 500k pots.

I don't know why that's not used more as it allows you to design the taper of any pot to whatever you want. I think it possibly retains some treble too, but that's unnoticeable effect if you don't know it's there.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

I never understood the love for the treble bleed thing, anyway. To me, it doesn't make anything better.

AGREED!! My new Kiesel had a factory treble bleed and I HATED that nasty sounding thing! Snipped that cap out of the circuit and went on it's MUCH better now.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Update:
I snipped the treble bleed off of the bridge pickup and went back and tried again. Seems to have fixed the harsh nasty sound I was hearing. Then I went back and snipped it off of the neck pickup....much, much better now.

I also took a couple pics of the switch cavity. @gregory had mentioned a possible ground loop so I wanted to let him have a peek at it. I’m not 100% sure I was able to capture everything that needs to be seen but here they are:

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

The bare wire should be attached to the black wire coming from the jack cavity rather than the back of the neck volume pot. With that connection, the green wire would then be unnecessary but I'm sure the double connection isn't doing any harm.

I doubt the ground loop is going to cause any problems.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

2) if I roll the neck pup volume off and am playing the bridge pickup, I notice that the bridge pup sounds just slightly less full. When I roll the neck volume back up it become fuller again. I’m pretty sure this is only something I would notice. It’s a very small change in tone but a change nonetheless.

I'm trying to think about how this could happen, and I'm flummoxed. Some questions I've have, if you hookup your guitar up to a DC resistance meter, select the bridge pickup, and then alter the neck volume, does the resistance reading change at all? Does it matter whether either pickup is or is not tapped? Does it matter where the tone controls are set?

Regarding the bleed cap values, one thing to keep in mind is that different caps will combine differently with different pickups. When a company suggests a particular cap value, they're offering a one size fits all shoe for a variety of feet.

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

When the neck volume is rolled down all the way the red lead going between the switch and control cavities becomes ground. This could increase the capacitance to ground between the white and/or black leads. If noticeable, this increase in capacitance would only darken the tone, not cause it to become less full.

 

[Hank-]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

That tech has done a crappy job, probably it's someone new at work. Next time don't take it to that place, I wouldn't pay for such shabby work myself. Treble bleeds weren't needed with 50s scheme in the first place as well.

Can't tell where the bare wire on the switch is connected to either if the other end is grounded to the back of the volume pot.

I much prefer moderrn with a treble bleed rather than the 50s wiring, I find the modern version is a bit middy too which seems to help me with my setup.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

That tech has done a crappy job, probably it's someone new at work. Next time don't take it to that place, I wouldn't pay for such shabby work myself. Treble bleeds weren't needed with 50s scheme in the first place as well.

Can't tell where the bare wire on the switch is connected to either if the other end is grounded to the back of the volume pot.

I much prefer moderrn with a treble bleed rather than the 50s wiring, I find the modern version is a bit middy too which seems to help me with my setup.

Well, the treble bleed on a 50’s wiring setup was my fault, not the tech’s. I didn’t know better and asked him to do that.
Besides that, what are you seeing that makes you think this is shabby work? This was done at a highly regarded shop in my area.
The possible ground loop, accounting to gregory shouldn’t be an issue...so that seems to be a moot point.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

I'm trying to think about how this could happen, and I'm flummoxed. Some questions I've have, if you hookup your guitar up to a DC resistance meter, select the bridge pickup, and then alter the neck volume, does the resistance reading change at all? Does it matter whether either pickup is or is not tapped? Does it matter where the tone controls are set?

Regarding the bleed cap values, one thing to keep in mind is that different caps will combine differently with different pickups. When a company suggests a particular cap value, they're offering a one size fits all shoe for a variety of feet.

I’d like to check out what you’re describing but I’m not 100% sure just how to do that. I have a multi-meter. What setting should I use and where Do I touch the leads?

Also, like I said, the change I’m experiencing is likely only perceptible to me (the player) and most likely not to anyone listening.

 

[Hank-]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Well, the treble bleed on a 50’s wiring setup was my fault, not the tech’s. I didn’t knob better and asked him to do that.
Besides that, what are you seeing that makes you think this is shabby work? This was done at a highly regarded shop in my area.
The possible ground loop, accounting to gregory shouldn’t be an issue...so that seems to be a moot point.

Look carefully at the first pic you posted.
1. There are flakes/blobs of solder scattered around the cavity. If one of those gets inside your pots it will start giving problems.
2. The wires at the joints were not held/laid out properly at the time applying solder.
3. The way the grounding is carried out is messy. The push pulls have a tab sticking out on top, that is suppoaed to be used for grounding, makes it easier to work with. Using the joint between the pot & the push pull assemble isnt the best spot to dump solder in.
4. Then theres the pickup wires being cut. It is always a good idea to keep excess wire available, helps resale. There was no need to cut short the red & green wires, Wiring them for parallel is easier when all wires are same length.

Now those may seem minor details & more of personal preference but as a whole its messy to me no matter how reputable the shop was/is.

As for the bare grounding, I see four wires in your switch cavity, five wires coming out in the control cavity, fifth being bare. What is the bare wire connecting to in the switch area?

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Look carefully at the first pic you posted.
1. There are flakes/blobs of solder scattered around the cavity. If one of those gets inside your pots it will start giving problems.
2. The wires at the joints were not held/laid out properly at the time applying solder.
3. The way the grounding is carried out is messy. The push pulls have a tab sticking out on top, that is suppoaed to be used for grounding, makes it easier to work with. Using the joint between the pot & the push pull assemble isnt the best spot to dump solder in.
4. Then theres the pickup wires being cut. It is always a good idea to keep excess wire available, helps resale. There was no need to cut short the red & green wires, Wiring them for parallel is easier when all wires are same length.

Now those may seem minor details & more of personal preference but as a whole its messy to me no matter how reputable the shop was/is.

As for the bare grounding, I see four wires in your switch cavity, five wires coming out in the control cavity, fifth being bare. What is the bare wire connecting to in the switch area?

I understand your concerns...all that said, the wiring isn’t necessarily “wrong”....yes?

I’ll have to go back and look for the bare wire in the switch cavity...I can’t see it in those pics either.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

You should not pay money for a wiring job that looks like that, it looks exceptionally amateurish. Whether it works or not is beside the point. I see a glob of solder sticking to the side of the control cavity, solder burn marks on white wire, and presumably the darker colored wires as well. The coil tap is only using half of the DPDT push pulls when it could be using both sides for added reliability. Les Paul cavities are hard to work in since the controls are directly mounted to the body, but that's why you do a lot of the soldering with the controls not mounted. You dress the guitar so you don't burn or scratch it, then solder as many of the connections as you can without requiring that the pot be mounted in the guitar. You can buy something called a "helping hand" that will hold the pot while you solder wires to it.

And as was mentioned, if the tech clipped the pickup's leads short, I'd be pissed. The fact that you got new pickups installed speaks to their modular quality, and so limiting how and where they can be installed, by chopping away the lead wires, amounts to damage. Meanwhile other wires in the cavity are excessively long for no reason.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

You should not pay money for a wiring job that looks like that, it looks exceptionally amateurish. Whether it works or not is beside the point. I see a glob of solder sticking to the side of the control cavity, solder burn marks on white wire, and presumably the darker colored wires as well. The coil tap is only using half of the DPDT push pulls when it could be using both sides for added reliability. Les Paul cavities are hard to work in since the controls are directly mounted to the body, but that's why you do a lot of the soldering with the controls not mounted. You dress the guitar so you don't burn or scratch it, then solder as many of the connections as you can without requiring that the pot be mounted in the guitar. You can buy something called a "helping hand" that will hold the pot while you solder wires to it.

And as was mentioned, if the tech clipped the pickup's leads short, I'd be pissed. The fact that you got new pickups installed speaks to their modular quality, and so limiting how and where they can be installed, by chopping away the lead wires, amounts to damage. Meanwhile other wires in the cavity are excessively long for no reason.

Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. However, I can’t undo what’s been done so my main concern right now is making sure I’m wired up correctly....
I’ll get a look at the switch cavity ASAP...I just got in from work.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

I doubt '50s wiring is the reason you're losing fullness in the bridge-only position with the neck volume turned down, though I can't come up with an obvious reason.

Regarding the possible ground loop, I see two grounds going to the switch cavity, two coming from the jack cavity and one to the the bridge (or tailpiece). If there is a loop it doesn't mean it will be an issue, however.

I spoke to the tech today.
One thing I noticed last week when I was jamming with some friends...with both volume knobs rolled off, when the drummer should hit a drum the guitar was picking it up and a low pitched feedback would come out of my amp. I was at a volume that got over the drums but I was FAR from cranked.
The first thing he said was that he wanted to look at the wiring again and suspected a grounding issue.
What are your thoughts on this?

I also asked about the slight fullness loss with the neck pickup rolled off. I’ll ask him the check with the meter to see if there is a difference with the knob up/down.