To Scarf or not to Scarf?

[Warheart]

I'm thinking about making a rhoads shaped guitar, but theres one thing thats been bothering me:
Should I use a Scarf Joint for the neck? are there any pros or cons to not having a Scarf Joint?
Also, would an all mahogany neck-thru rhoads with an ebony fretboard sound like a lespaul? or would rosewood be a better choice?
Thanks,
Allen

 

[Zerberus]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

Pros: A scarf joint is generally both stronger and cheaper than the same neck as a single piece.
Cons: doesn´t look as good and people that have no idea rag on them as a sign of low quality.

But a neckthru rhoads will never sound like a LP for multiple reasons.

1: the way the neck is fastened to the body, the lack of a lower (bass side) cutaway stabilizes a lesters neck tremendously, making the tome much thicker and fatter
2. Necktthr vs. set neck speeds up the response and articulation a bit, but also introduces a strong lo midrange spike that no other construction method has.
3. a Rhoads has MUCH less mass than a les paul...
4. the body shape coinidentally accentuates the same frequencies as a LP, but in a slightly different way.
5. you´re completely missing the bite and clarity of a thich maple top... but an archtop Rhoads is a PITA to buiild...

Neither rosewood nor ebony would really get you close.. but ebony would be much more likely to not be a honky fart cannon when done... I personally find mahogany rhoads with Maple necks overbearing enough...

An All Mahogany Rhoads would sound closer to a mahogany Firebird than any other gibson....

 

[Bludave]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

Rather than a scarf joint I would consider making a one piece neck like a firebird/ All the hardware andPUPS would be mounted into the same piece of wood. I also like rosewood over ebony, but thats just based on feel.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

THe problem I see in a neckthru mahogany rhoads is the stability of the neck /headstock transition....

If aou´re using a Tune O Matic, or a non recessed FLoyd, the neck has to be angled back to compensate.... THis isn´t bad

But when you angle the headstock back as well on a thusly constructed neck, you essentially have to carve a huge volute to strengthen the transition, or scarf the headstock on. Otherwise theat transition will be by far the "fail safe point" oif the guitar...

Everything else is just asking for problems IMO, as the headstock is now running at such a steep angle to the grrain that if the grain goes too "unstraight" for even an inch, you can essentially knock the headstock off by breathing on it too hard...

 

[Sludgenutz]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

Zerb is right about the "scarf" joint. If you can find the most exquisite limb of lumber that can follow the entire length of a "neck through", let alone just the neck and headstock angle...you are already a rich, rich badass! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :13:

Scarf joint headstocks are even found on many of the best classical guitars on earth! Decades have passed since there have been glues that create bond joints stronger than each of the ajoining pieces.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

I would do a scarf joint with a volute. In a strange way, I feel like the extra ridgidity at the nut area will compensate tonally for the reduction of material at the neck joint that Zerb pointed out.

I would also do a deep set neck instead of a neck through. If you take the neck to the bridge pickup, then your bridge is mounted into body wood.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

As a side note, a 3 piece neckthru is even more stable, and not that much more expensive as far as materials go than a scarf jointed one. Possibly even cheaper, depending on where you buy your lumber and what cuts you´re getting...

Particularly with a softer wood like mahogany (compared to maple) this isn´t necessarily a bad idea

I would do a scarf joint with a volute. In a strange way, I feel like the extra ridgidity at the nut area will compensate tonally for the reduction of material at the neck joint that Zerb pointed out....

Well, it´s not a reduction that I´m concerned about, but merely that the grain may be angled in such a way as to make it breakage prone on a one piece, much like the way the grain runs on a les Paul, a bit extremer even. A scarf joint eliminates this problem by realigning teh grain to run straight through the headstock.... this is why most scarf jointed guitars that don´t have other weaknesses (like a locking nut mounted with huge allen bolts the classic 80s way) don´t have a volute, either.

Of course the combination of both is the ultimate in stability, and not necessraily a bad "overbuild"... though I don´t think the tonal difference would be appreciable due to the relatively small area affected... a slightly thicker neck profile would have more impact thinx me :beerchug:

 

[Bellski777]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

Ok, help a fairly ignorant guitarist in this area. Is a scarf joint another name for dovetail joint? Or are they different entirely? Also, if they are different, can you make an electric with a dovetail neckjoint? Thanks alot guys!

 

[Zerberus]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

Ok, help a fairly ignorant guitarist in this area. Is a scarf joint another name for dovetail joint?

No

Or are they different entirely?

Yes

Also, if they are different, can you make an electric with a dovetail neckjoint? Thanks alot guys!

In theory, yes... but you´d have a really strange looking glue line where the neck meets the headstock

http://www.glen-l.com/supplies/pxman-apscarf.html

 

[Warheart]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

hmmmm
why would a 3 piece neck be more stable? if its going to be quartersawn why wouldn't a 1 piece be better than a 3 piece? the way i'm planning it right now though, its going to need to be a 2 piece neck.

Also, its going to be a TOM with string thru body, so I won't need to angle the neck at all, but i will be angling the headstock.
there are a few other considerations I had in mind as well, like a tapered headstock, I've heard this makes the neck more flexible in the transition area, thus making it less likely to break off. I'm also adding 2 carbon rods from stewmac as well, for extra strength. I'm going with a Jackson profile, which doesn't have a volute, and I don't really see why I would need one, especially with a quartersawn neck.
Thanks again,
Allen

 

[JacksonMIA]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

5. you´re completely missing the bite and clarity of a thich maple top... but an archtop Rhoads is a PITA to buiild...

I bet that would look really nice, though.


I'm just starting to dabble in construction, so I'll leave this discussion to those with some experience.

 

[JacksonMIA]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

hmmmm
why would a 3 piece neck be more stable? if its going to be quartersawn why wouldn't a 1 piece be better than a 3 piece? the way i'm planning it right now though, its going to need to be a 2 piece neck.

I'll tell you Hamer's theory.

If you use three pieces, with the two outer pieces basically bookmatched and glued with the grain angles against each other, the two pieces will fight each other and hold in place if there's any tendancy to warp.

Of course, they glue their necks and let them sit for several months before doing any more work on them, so most of the warping will have already happened - theoretically.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

I'll tell you Hamer's theory.

If you use three pieces, with the two outer pieces basically bookmatched and glued with the grain angles against each other, the two pieces will fight each other and hold in place if there's any tendancy to warp.

Of course, they glue their necks and let them sit for several months before doing any more work on them, so most of the warping will have already happened - theoretically.

Yep that´s the general theory behind it, thanks...

 

[Zerberus]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

hmmmm
why would a 3 piece neck be more stable? if its going to be quartersawn why wouldn't a 1 piece be better than a 3 piece? the way i'm planning it right now though, its going to need to be a 2 piece neck.

Also, its going to be a TOM with string thru body, so I won't need to angle the neck at all, but i will be angling the headstock.

If you´re using a tune-o-matic, Wraparound one piece, Badass, Kahler, non-recessed floyd or similar, you WILL be angling the neck back, otherwise you´ll have unplayably high action.

The only alternative is to recess the entire bridge.

there are a few other considerations I had in mind as well, like a tapered headstock, I've heard this makes the neck more flexible in the transition area, thus making it less likely to break off.

Who said this and what was he smoking? Tapered in which direction??

Basically: If it tapered towards the tip, the difference in the transition area is zero. If the thinner part of the headstock is at the transition, which is what i amaginge by "more flexible", it´s also a lot easier to break off.

I'm also adding 2 carbon rods from stewmac as well, for extra strength. I'm going with a Jackson profile, which doesn't have a volute, and I don't really see why I would need one, especially with a quartersawn neck.
Thanks again,
Allen

Carbon rods are always a good idea

And properly dried and quartersawn mahogany is generally stable enough if you don´t drop the guitar on it´s head...

Over on teh MCS forums there´s a beautiful Write Up by Neal Moser on constructing a neck thru guitar.... It´s in teh "Brotherhood of Wood" section, I recommend learning it front, back and sideways http://mcs.acidpit.org/index.php

 

[Davey]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

I bet that would look really nice, though.


I'm just starting to dabble in construction, so I'll leave this discussion to those with some experience.

http://www.jcfonline.com/gmonth/

 

[JacksonMIA]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

http://www.jcfonline.com/gmonth/

Dang it! I know better than to click your links! :yell:




Thanks!

 

[Davey]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

Dang it! I know better than to click your links! :yell:




Thanks!

you're welcome

 

[Zerberus]

Re: To Scarf or not to Scarf?

KEWL, Adrian finally got his guitar.... I must have totally missed the obligatory "She´s Here" thread....