Tonal and playing differences between LP Std, Custom, Supreme
- Thread starter chill
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jmh151
Active member
Re: Tonal and playing differences between LP Std, Custom, Supreme
The Supreme and Custom tend to play faster due to the Ebony Fingerboards.
The Standard has a more bluesy, classic rock tone due to the rosewood fretboard. The Custom and Supreme are brighter and have a quicker attack due to the ebony fretboard.
The Supreme is a hollow body, chambered, so it sounds closer to an ES-335- better for clean, jazz tones.
I don't think there's that many people here with a supreme to judge what pickup is better. Besides, the pickups on the supremes are very difficult to change
chill said:
The Supreme and Custom tend to play faster due to the Ebony Fingerboards.
The Standard has a more bluesy, classic rock tone due to the rosewood fretboard. The Custom and Supreme are brighter and have a quicker attack due to the ebony fretboard.
The Supreme is a hollow body, chambered, so it sounds closer to an ES-335- better for clean, jazz tones.
I don't think there's that many people here with a supreme to judge what pickup is better. Besides, the pickups on the supremes are very difficult to change
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Re: Tonal and playing differences between LP Std, Custom, Supreme
The main difference is that you have to be progressively more foolish to even think about dropping the dime on anything more than a Standard given Gibson's shoddy quality control. It's all MAple on mahog w/ either rose or ebony 22 frets and two HB's. Custom has a tad more high end due to the board. Some people like ebony, some don't. I don't.
The main difference is that you have to be progressively more foolish to even think about dropping the dime on anything more than a Standard given Gibson's shoddy quality control. It's all MAple on mahog w/ either rose or ebony 22 frets and two HB's. Custom has a tad more high end due to the board. Some people like ebony, some don't. I don't.
Pecan
New member
Re: Tonal and playing differences between LP Std, Custom, Supreme
The custom and surpeme have ebony fretboards. I hate ebony as a rule, but the custom is probably one of the few guitars I think it works well with. The supreme doesn't sound like a les paul really (Not that i've played one myself)
The custom and surpeme have ebony fretboards. I hate ebony as a rule, but the custom is probably one of the few guitars I think it works well with. The supreme doesn't sound like a les paul really (Not that i've played one myself)
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Tonal and playing differences between LP Std, Custom, Supreme
I own two LP 1960 Classic Premium Plus models from 1996 and 1997; "Les Paul" is a Honeyburst, and "Lolita Paul" is a slightly faded Heritage Cherry Sunburst. I also own a Supreme Flame-Top in Root Beer, nicknamed "Diana". Over the years, I have played many Custom models, but I have never owned one.
Part I
The Classics I own have flamed tops, and one-piece mahogany backs. (New Classics have 2- (and sometimes 3-) piece backs. Classics come standard with the hot Gibson 496R/500T ceramic pickups. Both came standard with zinc stop tailpieces and vintage style ABR-1 bridges. I have only weighed one ("Les"), and it weighed 9.3 lbs. (The other one is very close to this.) Some of these bodies are weight-relieved (with holes drilled into the mahogany prior to being fitted with the maple cap), but I'm not sure when Gibson started doing this--mine may or may not be weight-relieved. Both have aged inlays, not green--just slightly off-white; and Kluson tuners. The neck joint is the short-tenon design common to non-Historic/Custom Shop models. Both have the 1960 "Slim-Taper" neck profile, though "Lolita" is much fatter, and closer to a "1959 Historic" neck. Both have a "flat-wide" fret.
MODIFICATIONS:
Both guitars have been modified with Schaller Strap-Locks and nickle-plated jack-plates. "Lolita" has received gold "reflector" knobs, more appropriate for a late-1960 guitar. "Les" has a Gotoh Lightweight Aluminum Stop Tailpiece from Stewart-MacDonald that I just installed two weeks ago; along with a set of Seymour Duncan Antiquity humbuckers. Pots were not changed, though an RS kit is contemplated.
Two months ago, I installed a set of the Seymour Duncan 50th Anniversary Seth Lover pickups with Alnico II magnets in "Lolita". Pots were not changed,
though an RS kit is contemplated. At the next string change, I will install a Stew-Mac Gotoh LW tailpiece.
Other than the Nashville bridge, these guitars are very close to the current Standard. Intallation of the RS Kits, should get me about 90-95% of the "vibe" of the current Historic Standard.
And bear in mind, the MSRP of the 1996 Classic Premium Plus was about $5,000. I acquired both guitars used.
On to Part II and the Supreme.
I own two LP 1960 Classic Premium Plus models from 1996 and 1997; "Les Paul" is a Honeyburst, and "Lolita Paul" is a slightly faded Heritage Cherry Sunburst. I also own a Supreme Flame-Top in Root Beer, nicknamed "Diana". Over the years, I have played many Custom models, but I have never owned one.
Part I
The Classics I own have flamed tops, and one-piece mahogany backs. (New Classics have 2- (and sometimes 3-) piece backs. Classics come standard with the hot Gibson 496R/500T ceramic pickups. Both came standard with zinc stop tailpieces and vintage style ABR-1 bridges. I have only weighed one ("Les"), and it weighed 9.3 lbs. (The other one is very close to this.) Some of these bodies are weight-relieved (with holes drilled into the mahogany prior to being fitted with the maple cap), but I'm not sure when Gibson started doing this--mine may or may not be weight-relieved. Both have aged inlays, not green--just slightly off-white; and Kluson tuners. The neck joint is the short-tenon design common to non-Historic/Custom Shop models. Both have the 1960 "Slim-Taper" neck profile, though "Lolita" is much fatter, and closer to a "1959 Historic" neck. Both have a "flat-wide" fret.
MODIFICATIONS:
Both guitars have been modified with Schaller Strap-Locks and nickle-plated jack-plates. "Lolita" has received gold "reflector" knobs, more appropriate for a late-1960 guitar. "Les" has a Gotoh Lightweight Aluminum Stop Tailpiece from Stewart-MacDonald that I just installed two weeks ago; along with a set of Seymour Duncan Antiquity humbuckers. Pots were not changed, though an RS kit is contemplated.
Two months ago, I installed a set of the Seymour Duncan 50th Anniversary Seth Lover pickups with Alnico II magnets in "Lolita". Pots were not changed,
though an RS kit is contemplated. At the next string change, I will install a Stew-Mac Gotoh LW tailpiece.
Other than the Nashville bridge, these guitars are very close to the current Standard. Intallation of the RS Kits, should get me about 90-95% of the "vibe" of the current Historic Standard.
And bear in mind, the MSRP of the 1996 Classic Premium Plus was about $5,000. I acquired both guitars used.
On to Part II and the Supreme.
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Tonal and playing differences between LP Std, Custom, Supreme
Part II
The Les Paul Supreme is pretty close to the top of the heap for Gibson USA guitars. Mine is a 2005 in Root Beer, with a very tight flame or curl. It would seem to be a direct descendant of the Custom model, with its ebony fret-board, gold plated hardware and multi-ply body bindings. It has a unique headstock inlay of abalone and pearl. The fingerboard inlay pattern appears to be the same as used on Gibson's Super 400 Archtop guitar. A Nashville bridge is used, and Grover tuners; along with Gibson's "Modern Classic" 490R/498T pickup set. The knobs are gold-tone "speed" knobs, and the "Rhythm/Treble" switch cover has been omitted.
Aside from its top-of-the-line appointments, the Supreme has a couple of distinguishing features. The body is chambered and features a mahogany body capped with carved overlays of flame maple front AND back. (The body is thicker than other Les Paul models and requires a deeper case.) The frets are unique to this model, in that they are gold colored--narrower and taller than the frets on my Classics. (The gold color does not affect fret durability, according to Gibson.)
The neck is a larger profile than any of my guitars--though it has a different feel than the '58 or '59 Historic models. I think this neck may be similar to the 1968 Custom Authentic profile. I have not weighed this guitar yet, but it feels a few ounces lighter than my Classics.
The engineering regarding the design of the Supreme, and installation of the electronics package are quite remarkable. (Check out the LP Supreme article by Mike Slub. on the lespaulforum.com.) Certainly, this is one of the most aesthetically pleasing guitars ever built. It was supposed to be a limited edition for 2003 only, but it has caught the eye of many players and become one of the more popular LP models.
I acquired this guitar under unusual circumstances--a new guitar, it had been damaged (broken headstock) while in transit to a customer. The guitar was returned to the store, and repaired by the store's luthier. The repair is cosmetically acceptable, tuning is totally stable; and the bond appears quite durable.
The beauty of the Supreme's flamed maple back MAY actually be more than skin deep. I've noticed that the hard maple back seems nearly impervious to "worming" by buttons or beltbuckle--unlike the soft mahogany back of the Classic and Standard models. And the slightly deeper body puts the guitar at a different angle. Its not the same as moving to a semi-hollow 335, but it is a noticeable change from the Classic, Custom, or Standard models.
My guitar has been modified with a LW tailpiece, but I received the incorrect studs from Allparts. Their Customer Service is TERRIBLE! They have refused to send the correct parts after months of phone calls. I doubt I'll be doing any more busness with Allparts. They SUCK!
Let's go to PART III, and I tell you what I think about the way these guitars sound.
Bill
Part II
The Les Paul Supreme is pretty close to the top of the heap for Gibson USA guitars. Mine is a 2005 in Root Beer, with a very tight flame or curl. It would seem to be a direct descendant of the Custom model, with its ebony fret-board, gold plated hardware and multi-ply body bindings. It has a unique headstock inlay of abalone and pearl. The fingerboard inlay pattern appears to be the same as used on Gibson's Super 400 Archtop guitar. A Nashville bridge is used, and Grover tuners; along with Gibson's "Modern Classic" 490R/498T pickup set. The knobs are gold-tone "speed" knobs, and the "Rhythm/Treble" switch cover has been omitted.
Aside from its top-of-the-line appointments, the Supreme has a couple of distinguishing features. The body is chambered and features a mahogany body capped with carved overlays of flame maple front AND back. (The body is thicker than other Les Paul models and requires a deeper case.) The frets are unique to this model, in that they are gold colored--narrower and taller than the frets on my Classics. (The gold color does not affect fret durability, according to Gibson.)
The neck is a larger profile than any of my guitars--though it has a different feel than the '58 or '59 Historic models. I think this neck may be similar to the 1968 Custom Authentic profile. I have not weighed this guitar yet, but it feels a few ounces lighter than my Classics.
The engineering regarding the design of the Supreme, and installation of the electronics package are quite remarkable. (Check out the LP Supreme article by Mike Slub. on the lespaulforum.com.) Certainly, this is one of the most aesthetically pleasing guitars ever built. It was supposed to be a limited edition for 2003 only, but it has caught the eye of many players and become one of the more popular LP models.
I acquired this guitar under unusual circumstances--a new guitar, it had been damaged (broken headstock) while in transit to a customer. The guitar was returned to the store, and repaired by the store's luthier. The repair is cosmetically acceptable, tuning is totally stable; and the bond appears quite durable.
The beauty of the Supreme's flamed maple back MAY actually be more than skin deep. I've noticed that the hard maple back seems nearly impervious to "worming" by buttons or beltbuckle--unlike the soft mahogany back of the Classic and Standard models. And the slightly deeper body puts the guitar at a different angle. Its not the same as moving to a semi-hollow 335, but it is a noticeable change from the Classic, Custom, or Standard models.
My guitar has been modified with a LW tailpiece, but I received the incorrect studs from Allparts. Their Customer Service is TERRIBLE! They have refused to send the correct parts after months of phone calls. I doubt I'll be doing any more busness with Allparts. They SUCK!
Let's go to PART III, and I tell you what I think about the way these guitars sound.
Bill
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Tonal and playing differences between LP Std, Custom, Supreme
Part III
How do they sound?
Well, the Supreme is different, to say the least. Someone wrote that it sounded like a 335, since it was a semi-hollow. Let me assure you, it sounds NOTHING LIKE A 335!
It sounds very much like my other Les Pauls, though with a slightly faster, snappier attack, like you'd expect from a Custom. It has the woody, airy resonance and dynamics of a Standard model. While it has a slightly louder and more open acoustic tone than a solid LP, it is nowhere near that of a 335. It does not have the acoustic "warmth" of a 335, or even that of the smaller 336/356 family.
In my opinion, the Supreme is limited by the 490R/498T pickup set. Odd that I say "limited", in that the weakness of these pickups is that they try to do too much. I find it difficult to get a good tone from my amps from both pickups--set the tone for the neck pickup, and the bridge is way too bright. There are some good tones here, make no mistake. My favorite of the two is the neck pickup, but the bridge can be quite good, too. My preference would be for a better balanced set.
As to playability, I love the frets on the Supreme! It's a great playing guitar, even though the neck is slightly large for my hand. The body fits me well.
The bottom line--I like this guitar better than any Custom I have ever played. Most Customs are very heavy, and this one is lighter than any Custom I can ever remember. The tone is more resonant with a nice acoustic quality; while Customs (at least to my ear) have a tighter attack, less dynamics, and more sustain.
The pickup changes in the Classics have totally changed the character of these guitars. I actually LIKED the original 496R/500T combination; and I think these guitars are perfect for classic rock guys using Fender Twins and Supers--or Marshall JTM 45s, JMPs or JCM 800s. Unfortunately (LOL!), I'm using Mesa amps these days, and the Gibson Ceramics are too hot for the Mesas and my style. In the Lead Channel, the notes lose all dynamic response and sound very squashed.
In my "Lolita" Paul, I made the switch to the 50th Anniversary Seth Lovers from Musician's Friend. As soon as these were installed, I made the decision to purchase a set of gold covered Seths for the Supreme. The Anniversary Seths are the Alnico II version, and they are just so sweet. Much better definition than the Gibsons, and the lower output keeps my Mesa's Lead Channel singing with sweetness and sustain--yet the notes are not so compressed and squashed.
And the Antiquitys in the other Classic? I just can't imagine a better pickup. They are slightly different than the Seths--a little "smokier". I've never played a Les Paul that is so articulate, so defined--this is darn near Fender-ish! Blasphemy, you say! No, this is just the way a good PAF is supposed to sound. I can do classic rock--name the player--its got that tone. But I'd be just as comfortable dragging this guitar off to a rock-a-billy session or a jazz gig. I'm turning the Mesas up just a tad to compensate for the loss in volume compared to the Gibson ceramics--and it's a better tone.
I haven't played them enough to determine a clear favorite. The LW tailpiece on the Supreme made a HUGE difference on that guitar, but so far I think its effect is less noticeable on the Classic. I think RS Kits will open up the sound further, and I think when I have the Seth Lovers installed in the Supreme, I'll have the luther do the RS Kit at the same time. I'll gladly pay someone to do that job--its going to be difficult.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter a lot to me about the guitar's parentage, or subltle nuances of construction, pickups, fingerboard woods, etc. If a particular guitar speaks to me, that's the one I want to buy.
Bill
Part III
How do they sound?
Well, the Supreme is different, to say the least. Someone wrote that it sounded like a 335, since it was a semi-hollow. Let me assure you, it sounds NOTHING LIKE A 335!
It sounds very much like my other Les Pauls, though with a slightly faster, snappier attack, like you'd expect from a Custom. It has the woody, airy resonance and dynamics of a Standard model. While it has a slightly louder and more open acoustic tone than a solid LP, it is nowhere near that of a 335. It does not have the acoustic "warmth" of a 335, or even that of the smaller 336/356 family.
In my opinion, the Supreme is limited by the 490R/498T pickup set. Odd that I say "limited", in that the weakness of these pickups is that they try to do too much. I find it difficult to get a good tone from my amps from both pickups--set the tone for the neck pickup, and the bridge is way too bright. There are some good tones here, make no mistake. My favorite of the two is the neck pickup, but the bridge can be quite good, too. My preference would be for a better balanced set.
As to playability, I love the frets on the Supreme! It's a great playing guitar, even though the neck is slightly large for my hand. The body fits me well.
The bottom line--I like this guitar better than any Custom I have ever played. Most Customs are very heavy, and this one is lighter than any Custom I can ever remember. The tone is more resonant with a nice acoustic quality; while Customs (at least to my ear) have a tighter attack, less dynamics, and more sustain.
The pickup changes in the Classics have totally changed the character of these guitars. I actually LIKED the original 496R/500T combination; and I think these guitars are perfect for classic rock guys using Fender Twins and Supers--or Marshall JTM 45s, JMPs or JCM 800s. Unfortunately (LOL!), I'm using Mesa amps these days, and the Gibson Ceramics are too hot for the Mesas and my style. In the Lead Channel, the notes lose all dynamic response and sound very squashed.
In my "Lolita" Paul, I made the switch to the 50th Anniversary Seth Lovers from Musician's Friend. As soon as these were installed, I made the decision to purchase a set of gold covered Seths for the Supreme. The Anniversary Seths are the Alnico II version, and they are just so sweet. Much better definition than the Gibsons, and the lower output keeps my Mesa's Lead Channel singing with sweetness and sustain--yet the notes are not so compressed and squashed.
And the Antiquitys in the other Classic? I just can't imagine a better pickup. They are slightly different than the Seths--a little "smokier". I've never played a Les Paul that is so articulate, so defined--this is darn near Fender-ish! Blasphemy, you say! No, this is just the way a good PAF is supposed to sound. I can do classic rock--name the player--its got that tone. But I'd be just as comfortable dragging this guitar off to a rock-a-billy session or a jazz gig. I'm turning the Mesas up just a tad to compensate for the loss in volume compared to the Gibson ceramics--and it's a better tone.
I haven't played them enough to determine a clear favorite. The LW tailpiece on the Supreme made a HUGE difference on that guitar, but so far I think its effect is less noticeable on the Classic. I think RS Kits will open up the sound further, and I think when I have the Seth Lovers installed in the Supreme, I'll have the luther do the RS Kit at the same time. I'll gladly pay someone to do that job--its going to be difficult.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter a lot to me about the guitar's parentage, or subltle nuances of construction, pickups, fingerboard woods, etc. If a particular guitar speaks to me, that's the one I want to buy.
Bill
chill
New member
Re: Tonal and playing differences between LP Std, Custom, Supreme
Thanks for the info Bill. I did not realize the supreme was a newer model or that it did not have a control cavity opening in back. Crazy!
With the 490R/498T, were you able to set the amp for the neck pup and roll off the tone for the bridge to get good tones from each?
And anybody else with opinions on the Customs?
Thanks for the info Bill. I did not realize the supreme was a newer model or that it did not have a control cavity opening in back. Crazy!
With the 490R/498T, were you able to set the amp for the neck pup and roll off the tone for the bridge to get good tones from each?
And anybody else with opinions on the Customs?
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Tonal and playing differences between LP Std, Custom, Supreme
Yeah, they did that to keep that beautiful flame maple back intact. What I wish they would have done is cut a piece out of the back and beveled the edge so that that the cut out piece would be the cover--and mounted it with inserts and machine screws.
That's pretty much how I learned to do it, thanks to info I got from some of the guys on this site. I don't think the 490R/498T set is BAD, and given enough time I could work with it. Actually, come to think of it, the last two gigs I did with it--I was pretty happy. I like the Gibson Classic '57s and the Burstbucker I, II, and III. For that matter, the Hot Ceramics on my Classic weren't terrible--and like I said, I think through some amps for certain kinds of music--they can be awesome. Still, I'm hoping that the Seths I bought for the Supreme will be an improvement.
Customs are funny to me. I love all the frou-frou, but I have never found a Custom that I could bond with. They always seem heavier than a Standard. They seem to have less acoustic resonance, and more of a tight, fast, focused attack--with less dynamic range and more sustain--call it more "even-ness"--with less warmth. They just respond differently than a Standard. The Supreme is different yet, but there is a lot to like about this guitar.
I'd recommend that you look at a Supreme if you like the "bling" of a Custom but want a slightly different sound. If you don't like the pickups, be ready to pay someone to change them, and figure that into the cost.
The other guitars to look at are the Custom Shop Historic models. The '57 Goldtop, the '54 Oxblood, and the 58' Plaintop are all affordable, premium quality Les Pauls with a very different vibe than the Gibson USA models.
Good luck!
Bill
chill said:
Yeah, they did that to keep that beautiful flame maple back intact. What I wish they would have done is cut a piece out of the back and beveled the edge so that that the cut out piece would be the cover--and mounted it with inserts and machine screws.
chill said:
That's pretty much how I learned to do it, thanks to info I got from some of the guys on this site. I don't think the 490R/498T set is BAD, and given enough time I could work with it. Actually, come to think of it, the last two gigs I did with it--I was pretty happy. I like the Gibson Classic '57s and the Burstbucker I, II, and III. For that matter, the Hot Ceramics on my Classic weren't terrible--and like I said, I think through some amps for certain kinds of music--they can be awesome. Still, I'm hoping that the Seths I bought for the Supreme will be an improvement.
chill said:
Customs are funny to me. I love all the frou-frou, but I have never found a Custom that I could bond with. They always seem heavier than a Standard. They seem to have less acoustic resonance, and more of a tight, fast, focused attack--with less dynamic range and more sustain--call it more "even-ness"--with less warmth. They just respond differently than a Standard. The Supreme is different yet, but there is a lot to like about this guitar.
I'd recommend that you look at a Supreme if you like the "bling" of a Custom but want a slightly different sound. If you don't like the pickups, be ready to pay someone to change them, and figure that into the cost.
The other guitars to look at are the Custom Shop Historic models. The '57 Goldtop, the '54 Oxblood, and the 58' Plaintop are all affordable, premium quality Les Pauls with a very different vibe than the Gibson USA models.
Good luck!
Bill
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