Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

[Rabelais]

All these DiMarzio pickups are available in F-spaced format at a local shop nearby. I want to replace the stock pups in a PRS SE Singlecut, and I was wondering what are the main tonal differences between these models.


The stock bridge pup is a little bit thin, and the stock neck pup lacks definition. I just would like a fuller/fatter bridge humbucker and a very clean neck HB with less bass and mids. Output is not necesarrily and issue (I get dirt from my pedals).


Same question for neck pups (Air Classic Neck, Blues Bucker, Air Norton, Humbucker From Hell, PAF Joe, PAF Pro).


Thank you.

 

[Mr. B]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

The Norton sounds great in my PRS SE 245, which is very similar. Very balanced, great harmonics, medium-to-hot output. I have mine paired with a Fred in the neck. The 36th bridge sounds great in one too if you are looking for vintage PAF tones. I liked the 36th a little better in my Les Paul than the PRS, so I moved it there. I would avoid the Tone Zone in a singlecut. I would bet that the short scale and mahogany body will make it sound like mud. The Super Distortion (Dual sound) was pretty great in one as well, but it's a bit of a one-trick pony. Great rock pickup. It worked well with the Super-2 in the neck.

I have had the Humbucker from Hell in the neck before. Bright, clear, great sounding pickup, but I found it a bit too underpowered and a little stiff. Bluesbucker had the right EQ, but I don't like the P90 vibe it has because I just don't like P90's. Paf Pro has a muddy low end, but other than that, it works in a PRS singlecut. Paf Joe is warmer/rounder, and does not flub out in the low end quite as bad. I felt like it was a little too rounded off or soft. Besides the Fred, my other favorite neck for the PRS SE245 is the 36th neck. It works with higher powered bridges, and can still handle gain well. I bet the liquifire might work well with the Norton Bridge too, but I have never had them together at the same time.

The other set I really liked in the SE245 is the Duncan Slash A2Pro's.

You don't really need F-spaced versions for the PRS SE models.

 

[Toejam]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

The Norton is pretty awesome in mahogany, put one in my Hamer Special (paired up with a Duncan '59 in the neck). I've always loved the Tone Zone, but that's a pretty warm/dark sounding pickup and might get a little muddy in mahogany.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

The Tone Zone is a warm, fat, high output pickup with a kind of vowelly singing mid-range thing going on. It sounds great with a 1 meg or no-load tone pot, and splits very well for single coil sounds. The coils are mismatched too, with the slug coil being the stronger wind so if you flip it upside down it will brighten up if it does seem too dark for you.

The bluesbucker is a lovely sounding bright humbucker in the neck. It does some nice chimey tones, and sounds crisp and clear under gain.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

All these DiMarzio pickups are available in F-spaced format at a local shop nearby. I want to replace the stock pups in a PRS SE Singlecut, and I was wondering what are the main tonal differences between these models.


The stock bridge pup is a little bit thin, and the stock neck pup lacks definition. I just would like a fuller/fatter bridge humbucker and a very clean neck HB with less bass and mids. Output is not necesarrily and issue (I get dirt from my pedals).


Same question for neck pups (Air Classic Neck, Blues Bucker, Air Norton, Humbucker From Hell, PAF Joe, PAF Pro).


Thank you.

OK, many pickups! Let's give it a go.

Dual Sound: fairly hot, lots of midrange; it has a bit of a 'buzz saw' character in the top end and the bottom isn't as tight as I would like it to be, but it works well for heavy, HEAVY chording, a fairly bright amp (like a Marshall JMP or JCM800, Soldano SLO etc). Unless I had a tribute or cover band that requires the specific tone of this pickup, I wouldn't ever choose this one.

PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge: One of my favorite Dimarzio pickups. It has an amazing vocal like quality to the leads, it sings. The midrange is crunchy and bold. it's THERE but not 'in your face'. It does cleans well, medium gains well too but supertight chuggachugga: not so much.

Norton. IMHO a stiff pickup. I always fight this one. It is like the PAF above but slightly tighter I'd say. Not my thing.

Tone Zone. Hot, fat, juicy. It's that simply. IMHO only usable in guitars that are super-lightweight and need a pickup to fatten things up or a super-bright sounding guitar. Absolutely useless, imho, when you want cleans. Perhaps with a split, but it's been too long for me to remember.

Air Classic Neck: no idea. Never tried this pickup.

Blues Bucker: great in neck and bridge as a set. I loved this set. It sounded like a really pissed off tele pickup but silent, in a humbucker format. I really perceive this pickup as a singlecoil because that's what they were aiming for (tonally) and I believe this pickup is one of Dimarzio's best.

Air Norton: AHH this pickup.... man. I wish I had a guitar still with this pickup in the bridge and neck. I love this set so much. It's amazing. Warm but clear in the neck. never muffled or smushy. It's got cut and crunch in the bridge. Perhaps I should install this set again in a guitar... (but then again, I also want the bluesbucker set back for a guitar I've got...). Closest I found in the SD lineup to this pickup is the pearly gates, in terms of feel, tone and vibe. It's got a much higher DC count and an alnico V instead of the Pearly's 2, granted, but the airbucker technology helps in getting the inductance down, so in essence, 'faking' an alnico II. Dunno man, I just love this pickup as a set.

Humbucker From Hell: SO....FF'n... BRIGHT!! I didn't care for this pickup one bit. It was too skreechy and it didn't give me that singlecoily vibe I was looking for. I can feel how folks would love it, but not for me.

PAF Joe: vocal, sweet, open. Not honky at all. I was amazed at single-note runs with cleans, high gain and medium. It's an amazing, allround neck pickup. I wouldn't choose it for myself, though, but that's because I feel it is a fairly modern take on a neck pickup.

PAF Pro. Neck pickup? Nah. bridge bro. This pickup ROCKS ROCKS ROCKS all day long. Think early Bon Jovi tone. Dimarzio's tonal description is SPOT ON: Like that wahwah pedal in the midal. It's got a vocal quality to it that makes your leads scream and jump out of the cab but it's got enough power and tightness to add cut and tightness to your rhythm. It's a great pickup in almost any guitar if you're the only player in the band. If you've got a second player with humbuckers it might clash because the voicing of the PafPro occupies so much of the mix. I haven't tried this in the neck but I can imagine it might work well. I believe Vai used this pickup before the EVO was released?

 

[Discharged]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I want to replace the stock pups in a PRS SE Singlecut

Generally speaking, I personally don't care for Di Marzio p'ups, so let's make this clear from the get go.

Being a moonlighting guitar tech for over sixteen years now, so, in my personal experience servicing several hundred instruments throughout the years, I've gotten much better results with Seymour Duncan p'ups than DiMarzio in PRS SEs, specifically.

I've gotten excellent results with A3n/A2b-modded, nickel covered '59 set, A4shortN/A4LongB-modded Seth Lover set, stock Seth Lover set and nickel covered, APH1 set and with Nickel covered, A3-modded 59n/nickel covered, A2-modded 59/Custom Hybrid. All the players that commissioned the mods played a variety of styles, being at least half actual touring/studio pros, and the other half gravitate towards Jazz, Classic Rock, British Blues and Scandinavian Pop; no one played heavy and/or Metal styles. I don't cater to that demographic in my neck of woods.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck!

That's my Two Cents worth of advice.

/Peter

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

The Norton sounds great in my PRS SE 245, which is very similar. Very balanced, great harmonics, medium-to-hot output. I have mine paired with a Fred in the neck. The 36th bridge sounds great in one too if you are looking for vintage PAF tones. I liked the 36th a little better in my Les Paul than the PRS, so I moved it there. I would avoid the Tone Zone in a singlecut. I would bet that the short scale and mahogany body will make it sound like mud. The Super Distortion (Dual sound) was pretty great in one as well, but it's a bit of a one-trick pony. Great rock pickup. It worked well with the Super-2 in the neck.

I have had the Humbucker from Hell in the neck before. Bright, clear, great sounding pickup, but I found it a bit too underpowered and a little stiff. Bluesbucker had the right EQ, but I don't like the P90 vibe it has because I just don't like P90's. Paf Pro has a muddy low end, but other than that, it works in a PRS singlecut. Paf Joe is warmer/rounder, and does not flub out in the low end quite as bad. I felt like it was a little too rounded off or soft. Besides the Fred, my other favorite neck for the PRS SE245 is the 36th neck. It works with higher powered bridges, and can still handle gain well. I bet the liquifire might work well with the Norton Bridge too, but I have never had them together at the same time.

The other set I really liked in the SE245 is the Duncan Slash A2Pro's.

You don't really need F-spaced versions for the PRS SE models.

Thanks, Mr. B. I am leaning towards the Norton and the PAF 36 anniv. Bridge, for a bit more versatility. I also like the idea of single colish Humbuckers in the neck. Maybe it´s me, but neck humbuckers sound a bit "congested" to my ears.

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

The Tone Zone is a warm, fat, high output pickup with a kind of vowelly singing mid-range thing going on. It sounds great with a 1 meg or no-load tone pot, and splits very well for single coil sounds. The coils are mismatched too, with the slug coil being the stronger wind so if you flip it upside down it will brighten up if it does seem too dark for you.

The bluesbucker is a lovely sounding bright humbucker in the neck. It does some nice chimey tones, and sounds crisp and clear under gain.

Thanks. I am afraid the Blues Bucker will be my choice, since the HB from hell may be a bit too "hi-fi" sounding (at least it sounds like that in demos)

 

[OLDERBUDWISER]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I have the Norton paired with the Bluesbucker and its awesome. I have a weird one tho. I put the Transition neck pickup in the bridge of 1 of my singlecuts and it sounds incredible! I heard the same for the breed neck as well but have yet to try it. I also have many Duncan sets as well, the Pegasus/Sentient is a killer combo IMHO

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

OK, many pickups! Let's give it a go.

Dual Sound: fairly hot, lots of midrange; it has a bit of a 'buzz saw' character in the top end and the bottom isn't as tight as I would like it to be, but it works well for heavy, HEAVY chording, a fairly bright amp (like a Marshall JMP or JCM800, Soldano SLO etc). Unless I had a tribute or cover band that requires the specific tone of this pickup, I wouldn't ever choose this one.

PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge: One of my favorite Dimarzio pickups. It has an amazing vocal like quality to the leads, it sings. The midrange is crunchy and bold. it's THERE but not 'in your face'. It does cleans well, medium gains well too but supertight chuggachugga: not so much.

Norton. IMHO a stiff pickup. I always fight this one. It is like the PAF above but slightly tighter I'd say. Not my thing.

Tone Zone. Hot, fat, juicy. It's that simply. IMHO only usable in guitars that are super-lightweight and need a pickup to fatten things up or a super-bright sounding guitar. Absolutely useless, imho, when you want cleans. Perhaps with a split, but it's been too long for me to remember.

Air Classic Neck: no idea. Never tried this pickup.

Blues Bucker: great in neck and bridge as a set. I loved this set. It sounded like a really pissed off tele pickup but silent, in a humbucker format. I really perceive this pickup as a singlecoil because that's what they were aiming for (tonally) and I believe this pickup is one of Dimarzio's best.

Air Norton: AHH this pickup.... man. I wish I had a guitar still with this pickup in the bridge and neck. I love this set so much. It's amazing. Warm but clear in the neck. never muffled or smushy. It's got cut and crunch in the bridge. Perhaps I should install this set again in a guitar... (but then again, I also want the bluesbucker set back for a guitar I've got...). Closest I found in the SD lineup to this pickup is the pearly gates, in terms of feel, tone and vibe. It's got a much higher DC count and an alnico V instead of the Pearly's 2, granted, but the airbucker technology helps in getting the inductance down, so in essence, 'faking' an alnico II. Dunno man, I just love this pickup as a set.

Humbucker From Hell: SO....FF'n... BRIGHT!! I didn't care for this pickup one bit. It was too skreechy and it didn't give me that singlecoily vibe I was looking for. I can feel how folks would love it, but not for me.

PAF Joe: vocal, sweet, open. Not honky at all. I was amazed at single-note runs with cleans, high gain and medium. It's an amazing, allround neck pickup. I wouldn't choose it for myself, though, but that's because I feel it is a fairly modern take on a neck pickup.

PAF Pro. Neck pickup? Nah. bridge bro. This pickup ROCKS ROCKS ROCKS all day long. Think early Bon Jovi tone. Dimarzio's tonal description is SPOT ON: Like that wahwah pedal in the midal. It's got a vocal quality to it that makes your leads scream and jump out of the cab but it's got enough power and tightness to add cut and tightness to your rhythm. It's a great pickup in almost any guitar if you're the only player in the band. If you've got a second player with humbuckers it might clash because the voicing of the PafPro occupies so much of the mix. I haven't tried this in the neck but I can imagine it might work well. I believe Vai used this pickup before the EVO was released?

Thanks. I just saw a demo with two PAF 36th. anniversary pickups, and they sound so sweet. Same for the Norton/PAF Joe neck combo. It´s a close call.

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

Generally speaking, I personally don't care for Di Marzio p'ups, so let's make this clear from the get go.

Being a moonlighting guitar tech for over sixteen years now, so, in my personal experience servicing several hundred instruments throughout the years, I've gotten much better results with Seymour Duncan p'ups than DiMarzio in PRS SEs, specifically.

I've gotten excellent results with A3n/A2b-modded, nickel covered '59 set, A4shortN/A4LongB-modded Seth Lover set, stock Seth Lover set and nickel covered, APH1 set and with Nickel covered, A3-modded 59n/nickel covered, A2-modded 59/Custom Hybrid. All the players that commissioned the mods played a variety of styles, being at least half actual touring/studio pros, and the other half gravitate towards Jazz, Classic Rock, British Blues and Scandinavian Pop; no one played heavy and/or Metal styles. I don't cater to that demographic in my neck of woods.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck!

That's my Two Cents worth of advice.

/Peter

Thank you. All your suggestions seem to be PAF-style pickups, and, believe it or not, the guys in Judas Priest and Saxon recorded some legendary metal tones using stock PAF-style pups. I don´t like super high output pickups. The 59/custom hybrid sounds nice too!.

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I have the Norton paired with the Bluesbucker and its awesome. I have a weird one tho. I put the Transition neck pickup in the bridge of 1 of my singlecuts and it sounds incredible! I heard the same for the breed neck as well but have yet to try it. I also have many Duncan sets as well, the Pegasus/Sentient is a killer combo IMHO

Thank you. Do you have the Pegasus/Sentient set in a Les Paul/single cut style guitar?. I like how they sound.

 

[OLDERBUDWISER]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

Yes, they are in an Epiphone Les Paul

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

Yes, they are in an Epiphone Les Paul

Then I might consider this set as well ... choices choices.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I don't know anything about Saxon, but Glenn Tipton's Strat that he used from British Steel on has a Super Distortion (same as Dual Sound) humbucker in the bridge position.

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I don't know anything about Saxon, but Glenn Tipton's Strat that he used from British Steel on has a Super Distortion (same as Dual Sound) humbucker in the bridge position.

Yes, and also an SG with stock pickups. In the early 80s, Graham Oliver of Saxon used an SG and a Flying V, also with stock pickups.

 

[Archer250]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

Tipton and Downing were using stock Gibson guitars in addition to the former's modded strat.

Randy Rhoad's LP Custom also hadstock pickups IIRC

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

Tipton and Downing were using stock Gibson guitars in addition to the former's modded strat.

Randy Rhoad's LP Custom also hadstock pickups IIRC

That´s correct too. And I forgot to mention K.K. Downing´s stock Flying V.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

Not trying to play trivial pursuit (I would lose!), just saying the Dual Sound is a lot more versatile than some people think and a lot of classic metal was made with it, along with the Duncan Distortion and the Gibson 500t. The list of famous players who have used the Super Distortion is mighty long!

But I also concede the point that a lot of classic rock and classic metal was also made with paf-output pickups. At this point I am distracting from the op's question rather than adding to the info so I will show myself the door.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

A few data about resistance (in k) / inductance (in H):


36th's: 9.72k & 5.47H (bridge), 7.74k & 4.23H (neck). It's respectively more and less than the theoretical average value for a P.A.F. clone (8k and 4.4H, values that a bridge SH55 Seth Lover reproduces exactly). Again, these are data that I've measured and not theoretical data. Real pickups being not created perfect, actual measurements may differ with other samples of the same model.

DM Dual-Sound (in series): 13.6k, 8.2 H according to DiMarzio. A bit more than 13k & 6.97H measured on the last one that I've tested [EDIT: roughly 1/4 of these values once the PU wired in parallel].

Tone Zone: 16.3k & 7.77H with the last one that I had in hand.


More inductance = more beef and more mids. (it’s a really caricatural sum up but at least it explains why inductance is a much more meaningful value than DCR; once we know the inductance and Gauss level / magnet type, the tone of a pickup can be predicted for the most part, as long as it’s built with standard components).

It must be said that while more DCR often translates in more inductance, it's not always the case: a DiMarzio Steve Special measures 17.4k but only 4.89H. In this case, the high resistance only flattens the tone a bit, making it less focused than a low resistance HB.

Measured inductance of a few Duncan HB's, for comparison:

PG1b: 4.6H
APH1b: 4.7H
SH1b: 4.8H
SH13: 6.8H
Custom Custom: 7H
SH4: 7.8H
Invader: 8.4H


FWIW (= my 2 cents).

Good luck in your tone quest, Rabelais.