Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

[orpheo]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I love the super distortion on records but never in real life. My guess is that the amp and recording methods influence the final result so severely that the pickup by itself in modern settings (and volume levels) simply doesn't love up to its pedigree (anymore(.

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

Not trying to play trivial pursuit (I would lose!), just saying the Dual Sound is a lot more versatile than some people think and a lot of classic metal was made with it, along with the Duncan Distortion and the Gibson 500t. The list of famous players who have used the Super Distortion is mighty long!

But I also concede the point that a lot of classic rock and classic metal was also made with paf-output pickups. At this point I am distracting from the op's question rather than adding to the info so I will show myself the door.

No worries. Yes, the DualSound/SD was THE distortion pup for a long while, and lots of people used it. I´ve tried one before, and itś great, but I´d like something moe moderate

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

A few data about resistance (in k) / inductance (in H):


36th's: 9.72k & 5.47H (bridge), 7.74k & 4.23H (neck). It's respectively more and less than the theoretical average value for a P.A.F. clone (8k and 4.4H, values that a bridge SH55 Seth Lover reproduces exactly). Again, these are data that I've measured and not theoretical data. Real pickups being not created perfect, actual measurements may differ with other samples of the same model.

DM Dual-Sound (in series): 13.6k, 8.2 H according to DiMarzio. A bit more than 13k & 6.97H measured on the last one that I've tested [EDIT: roughly 1/4 of these values once the PU wired in parallel].

Tone Zone: 16.3k & 7.77H with the last one that I had in hand.


More inductance = more beef and more mids. (it’s a really caricatural sum up but at least it explains why inductance is a much more meaningful value than DCR; once we know the inductance and Gauss level / magnet type, the tone of a pickup can be predicted for the most part, as long as it’s built with standard components).

It must be said that while more DCR often translates in more inductance, it's not always the case: a DiMarzio Steve Special measures 17.4k but only 4.89H. In this case, the high resistance only flattens the tone a bit, making it less focused than a low resistance HB.

Measured inductance of a few Duncan HB's, for comparison:

PG1b: 4.6H
APH1b: 4.7H
SH1b: 4.8H
SH13: 6.8H
Custom Custom: 7H
SH4: 7.8H
Invader: 8.4H


FWIW (= my 2 cents).

Good luck in your tone quest, Rabelais.

Thanks. I think I´ll install de PAF 36th anniv. set. They sound sweet in the demos.

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I love the super distortion on records but never in real life. My guess is that the amp and recording methods influence the final result so severely that the pickup by itself in modern settings (and volume levels) simply doesn't love up to its pedigree (anymore(.

I´ve read that the current production SD doesn´t sound like the original iun the 1970s.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I had a super distortion from 1974. Few, actually.
Didn't care about them. New ones sound little less hairy.

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I had a super distortion from 1974. Few, actually.
Didn't care about them. New ones sound little less hairy.

They can olny be used for one thing: dirt.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

A few data about resistance (in k) / inductance (in H):


36th's: 9.72k & 5.47H (bridge), 7.74k & 4.23H (neck). It's respectively more and less than the theoretical average value for a P.A.F. clone (8k and 4.4H, values that a bridge SH55 Seth Lover reproduces exactly). Again, these are data that I've measured and not theoretical data. Real pickups being not created perfect, actual measurements may differ with other samples of the same model.

DM Dual-Sound (in series): 13.6k, 8.2 H according to DiMarzio. A bit more than 13k & 6.97H measured on the last one that I've tested [EDIT: roughly 1/4 of these values once the PU wired in parallel].

Tone Zone: 16.3k & 7.77H with the last one that I had in hand.


More inductance = more beef and more mids. (it’s a really caricatural sum up but at least it explains why inductance is a much more meaningful value than DCR; once we know the inductance and Gauss level / magnet type, the tone of a pickup can be predicted for the most part, as long as it’s built with standard components).

It must be said that while more DCR often translates in more inductance, it's not always the case: a DiMarzio Steve Special measures 17.4k but only 4.89H. In this case, the high resistance only flattens the tone a bit, making it less focused than a low resistance HB.

Measured inductance of a few Duncan HB's, for comparison:

PG1b: 4.6H
APH1b: 4.7H
SH1b: 4.8H
SH13: 6.8H
Custom Custom: 7H
SH4: 7.8H
Invader: 8.4H


FWIW (= my 2 cents).

Good luck in your tone quest, Rabelais.

This makes a lot of sense now. Look at this pickup:

https://www.axesrus.co.uk/Axesrus-Wraith-p/aruwra.htm

it induces 'only' 5.75H at 17K. Very low for such a hot humbucker. but it explains why it sounds so clear.

Inductance: amazing to understand when deciding what pickup to choose.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

This makes a lot of sense now. Look at this pickup:

https://www.axesrus.co.uk/Axesrus-Wraith-p/aruwra.htm

it induces 'only' 5.75H at 17K. Very low for such a hot humbucker. but it explains why it sounds so clear.

Inductance: amazing to understand when deciding what pickup to choose.

Yep, inductance is always good to know - reason why I often ramble about it in my answers.

A side note about the specs: another interesting parameter is interwinding capacitance. with inductance, it defines the resonant peak of any passive pickup. It ranges between a few dozens and a few hundreds of picofarads and can be measured only at very high frequencies (beyond the resonant peak). The value of 3.28nF mentioned by Axesrus is obviously not interwinding capacitance and, as such, is of limited interest...

 

[orpheo]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

Yep, inductance is always good to know - reason why I often ramble about it in my answers.

A side note about the specs: another interesting parameter is interwinding capacitance. with inductance, it defines the resonant peak of any passive pickup. It ranges between a few dozens and a few hundreds of picofarads and can be measured only at very high frequencies (beyond the resonant peak). The value of 3.28nF mentioned by Axesrus is obviously not interwinding capacitance and, as such, is of limited interest...

never heard of that term before. Could be interesting? However, this pickup is amazing. I have tried almost all of AxesRus' pickups and I haven't heard one clunker yet. Their p90's, humbuckers and singlecoils are all superbly built and sound so, so good.

 

[Rabelais]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

Yep, inductance is always good to know - reason why I often ramble about it in my answers.

A side note about the specs: another interesting parameter is interwinding capacitance. with inductance, it defines the resonant peak of any passive pickup. It ranges between a few dozens and a few hundreds of picofarads and can be measured only at very high frequencies (beyond the resonant peak). The value of 3.28nF mentioned by Axesrus is obviously not interwinding capacitance and, as such, is of limited interest...

Too bad very few pickup manufacturers give you such specs.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

never heard of that term before. Could be interesting? However, this pickup is amazing. I have tried almost all of AxesRus' pickups and I haven't heard one clunker yet. Their p90's, humbuckers and singlecoils are all superbly built and sound so, so good.

My bad. Hasty answer > unadequate wording based on pavlovian reflexes. "Winding capacitance" should suffice to express what I was trying to evoke (although humbuckers actually share a few things with transformers).

Thx for the Axesrus link: one more brand to try... )

 

[orpheo]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

My bad. Hasty answer > unadequate wording based on pavlovian reflexes. "Winding capacitance" should suffice to express what I was trying to evoke (although humbuckers actually share a few things with transformers).

Thx for the Axesrus link: one more brand to try... )

the p90's, the Ethereal, and model 24 are some of my favorites and great choices to begin with. The Classic50's and bourbon city are great for in the neck. I always struggled with p90's but these are.... man. perfect.

 

[Francois]

Re: Tonal differences between Dual Sound, PAF 36 Anniv. Bridge, Norton and Tone Zone?

I like very much the Dual Sound (which is the 4C version of) the Super Distortion and prefer it to the Tone Zone.
But it could be the guitar...

My Dual Sound are in a maple neck through with canadian ash wings (Aria Pro II RS-X80) and the Tone Zone is in a MIJ basswood Charvel with a maple neck (soon to be replaced by a Full Shred).

As mentioned above the SD was used in classic metal, but when you split it (a a good guitar) you get pristine almost accoustic-like tones.

The Tone Zone is convenient for metal.
(I never heard it split. Sorry.)

One last thing :

SD = Bass 8.0 / Mid 7,5 / Treble 5,5
TZ = Bass 8.5 / Mid 8,5 / Treble 5,0