Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

[dsuigdsf]

Hi!
Modern wiring makes that treble disappear when I turn down volume pot.
The cure is treble bleed mod, but that doesn't sound good for me in my HH strat.
50's makes that volume knob is more natural, when I turn down volume pot, treble are still present.
How works wiring wothout tone knob? It works similar to modern or 50's?

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

The volume darkening will taper the same as 50s but there won't be the load of the tone afterwards darkening it.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

Same as 50s.

No.


Without a tone knob, when you turn down your volume you lose high end.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

Yes.

You lose high end as you turn down your volume with 50s also. Only not as much as with modern.

 

[shadowfire90]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

My approach anyways how I'd deal with this is to get best of both worlds. More treble as you roll the volume down and without the down side to some how the 50s wiring reacts. As much as I love 50s wiring if people use the volume control a lot to help the guitar become more expressive this is what I'd do.

You can approach this one of two ways

approach one
modern wiring - switch out the volume for a linear pot. Use the same value so say it was a 2 humbucker ESP. I'd want a B500k pot
linear pots when you turn them down are more smooth and consistent.

approach 2
Sticking with modern wiring as well
try a treble bleed mod. This is for more simple builds such as a 1 volume, 1 tone builds. With les pauls I've heard they help but I remember one youtuber had two in a guitar and it caused issues. I'll have to find the video. There are many treble bleed mods out there but this is arguably the best one. The good news is this is dirt cheap to make. 1nf capacitors are used in other mods as well.

Kinman style you'd need a

part 1
130k resistor - 1/4w - metal film - 1% tolerance
metal film resistors aren't that much more money 50 cents give or take more and are very accurate. Any time you buy resistors you've got enough for a lifetime as 100 of them will set people back 2-3$ maximum from China or Thailand.

part 2
0.001uf (1nf) capacitor - the smaller the voltage the better - how low of a value this is as long as you don't go ceramic you'll be ok.
I see no benefits to 1% capacitors in such a small valued capacitor. The smaller voltage capacitors such as polyester will do the trick.

This is for reference
View attachment 102041

and this is seeing one in action.
If you like what you see solder one in. Don't go with Stewmac for theirs. You could do 20-30 guitars minimum for what their asking price is.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

1nf is too large of a value for a cap only treble bleed. It will screw up the tone. 100-400 pf is the proper range dark to bright.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

approach one
modern wiring - switch out the volume for a linear pot. Use the same value so say it was a 2 humbucker ESP. I'd want a B500k pot
linear pots when you turn them down are more smooth and consistent.

A linear pot does nothing to retain treble as it is turned down. 50s wiring does a good job as well as several other treble bleed mods. I prefer the Kinman.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

Yes.

You lose high end as you turn down your volume with 50s also. Only not as much as with modern.

That's not what he asked.

He asked if wiring without a tone knob is more like 50's or modern wiring. Wiring without a tone knob, rolling back the volume is the same as modern wiring - lots of highs are lost right away (without the load of the tone pot things will be brighter to start with though). It behaves differently than 50's wiring where most of the highs are retained as you roll back the volume.

The advice you're giving is incorrect for the question that was asked.

 

[dsuigdsf]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

No.


Without a tone knob, when you turn down your volume you lose high end.

So with 50's wiring I will lose less treble than with only volume knob (without tone)?

 

[dsuigdsf]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

That's not what he asked.

He asked if wiring without a tone knob is more like 50's or modern wiring. Wiring without a tone knob, rolling back the volume is the same as modern wiring - lots of highs are lost right away (without the load of the tone pot things will be brighter to start with though). It behaves differently than 50's wiring where most of the highs are retained as you roll back the volume.

The advice you're giving is incorrect for the question that was asked.

This is the answer to my question.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

So with 50's wiring I will lose less treble than with only volume knob (without tone)?

50's wiring is a way to wire a tone pot in. I don't see how you could do it without a tone knob.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

That's not what he asked.

Thanks for the heads up. I was getting at the logic of what you're trying to say. You're saying on its own a volume pot works like modern. But ADDING a load AFTER the signal has passed through the volume pot causes the volume pot to have a brighter taper. By your logic, my no load tone which is wired after my volume should change my volume from modern to 50s when the tone is moved from 10 to 9.5. But it doesn't. There's no change in the volume pot's response when the tone is in or out of the circuit when it's wired after the volume pot.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

Thanks for the heads up. I was getting at the logic of what you're trying to say. You're saying on its own a volume pot works like modern. But ADDING a load AFTER the signal has passed through the volume pot causes the volume pot to have a brighter taper. By your logic, my no load tone which is wired after my volume should change my volume from modern to 50s when the tone is moved from 10 to 9.5. But it doesn't. There's no change in the volume pot's response when the tone is in or out of the circuit when it's wired after the volume pot.

I think that makes sense. There's probably not much difference in sound between modern and 50's wiring with the volume and tones both up high.

I'd expect that if you put the tone at 9.5 and then roll the volume back to half you'll notice that it's much brighter (50s mod doing it's thing, keeping the guitar bright as you reduce volume) than if you click the tone out of the circuit and then roll the volume back to half (modern wiring at this point, so rolling volume back drops highs).

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

That doesn't make any sense why adding a load would brighten things. By my understanding, it's the tone before the volume which darkens it from its default functionality.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

That doesn't make any sense why adding a load would brighten things. By my understanding, it's the tone before the volume which darkens it from its default functionality.

With the 50's mod you're not brightening things by adding a load. You're brightening things by using the cap in the tone pot along with the volume pot as a kind of treble bleed.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

How in the eff? The tone doesn't bridge the input of the volume.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

Honestly, my understanding of the theory behind 50's mod wiring is a little fuzzy. It's not wired the same way as a treble bleed, but it causes a similar audible effect.


"When you to hook up the signal to the outer lug, and by using the middle lug (the moving part) you can dial in how much of that volume you want. In this case, the pot works as a power divider. But it can be done in a different way. If you hook up the pickup to the middle lug, the amount of load ‘behind’ the input is what causes the decrease of volume when you roll down your volume. This wiring is called the ‘independent volume mod,’ because in the middle position you are now allowed to dial in the exact tone you want without sacrificing volume. In theory this might sound neat, but it does take out a huge amount of your high end." - https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips-and-tricks/lespaulwiring

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

Lol. Ur makin stuff up! I knew you were makin stuff up. That is talking about how to wire the volume's input and output. There's no explanation of how 50s works. I'm pretty sure a volume pot's treble tapers off the same for both only a volume and 50s. While adding a tone in front of the volume loads the volume even more when the volume is turned down. This makes the most sense and it is also what I remember from testing, although I don't have guitars set up each way right now. Putting a load after the volume and having it brighten things makes zero sense.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

What I've observed wiring guitars is:

With 50s wiring, your guitar stays bright sounding as you turn down the volume control - but the tone knob kinda seems to do different things depending on where the volume pot is set.

With modern/regular wiring, your guitar will get darker sounding as you turn the volume down but your tone knob behaves the same way no matter where the volume is.

With modern/regular wiring with a simple treble bleed (cap only between the lugs), your guitar will get brighter sounding as you turn the volume down. There are a variety of other treble bleed modes that attempt to balance the sound better.



I don't really understand the electrical theory that causes your guitar pickups to stay bright while turning the volume down with 50s wiring . . . but can hear it. You may well be right, it might not be doing what a treble bleed does at all. Maybe you could explain the theory that results in the pickups staying bright as you turn down the volume?

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Tone knob 50's vs modern vs no tone

There's no doubt mod wiring gets very dark as soon as the volume is turned down while 50s maintains a good amount of treble. However, if you listen, 50s also does darken as the volume is turned down. This is just from the normal function of the volume pot where highs are bled off 1st as some of the signal is directed to ground. It doesn't turn to dark as midnight as soon as the volume is turned down, though, because the tone is out the back of the volume pot and doesn't cause the volume to load the signal harder like with mod wiring when the tone is in front of the volume. So the volumes behave the same if there is no tone or if the tone is after the volume pot as in 50s. Side note: you can get whatever sound you want with treble bleeds depending on the values you use. 1-200pf cap only will maintain some treble, 300pf will maintain the same amount of treble, 400pf will have more treble as the vol is turned down.