Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

I

Il_Bès

New member
Hi all.
I've got a swamp ash Les Paul Studio, with mahogany neck and ebony fretboard. While I've always liked the stock neck pickup, I never managed to get anything out of the bridge 498T but tons of ear-piercing highs. A mag swap yielded some improvement, adding a bit of strength to the 490, but overall the EQ that worked with the A5-490R still was no use with the A2-498T.
Last week a fellow guitarist gave me a Gibson Classic '57+, which has finally fixed the major issues of the 498T. I couldm't test the setup as I'd want to, 'cause I've been foolish enough to leave the AlnicoV in the neck pickup, which as a result is much louder than the '57 no matter how I tweak the height of both PUs. I think I'll throw back its AlnicoII and maybe repot the whole thing.
Anyway, after hearing what a difference a pickup can make (and we're talking about the same manufacturer), I am curious to find a good neck pickup to match the Classic+.
I play mostly classic rock, with some blues and some jazzy stuff. I would also like the ability to split the PU.
Any suggestions?

Andrea
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

If you didn't like the 490R with the stock A2, you're probably not going to like a regular '57 there either. Maybe an A2PN or PGN?
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

A 490R should easily balance with a 57+, which has pretty high output for a PAF type, regardless of what magnet it has. Are you sure the 57's magnet isn't degaussed? If you like the 490R, I'd be trying to figure out why the 57s not giving you the output it should.
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

I second the PGN blueman mentioned. But if you liked the 490 other than the output difference then I would try to find a way to make it work. You messed with the heights of the pickups? Get a multimeter for the 57+? Buying a new pickup to fix a problem only to find tha the problem didn't get solved is not fun.
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

Falloffthebonetone said:
I second the PGN blueman mentioned. But if you liked the 490 other than the output difference then I would try to find a way to make it work. You messed with the heights of the pickups? Get a multimeter for the 57+? Buying a new pickup to fix a problem only to find tha the problem didn't get solved is not fun.
Click to expand...
Hi.
The cover of the 490R is currently flush with its mounting ring, and still the output is quite higher than the 57's. I'm swapping the A2 back in, this should solve the problem. I'll post an update as soon as I'll have it tested.

Thanks,

Andrea
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

blueman335 said:
If you didn't like the 490R with the stock A2, you're probably not going to like a regular '57 there either. Maybe an A2PN or PGN?
Click to expand...
Darn language issues... :laughing:
I do like the stock 490R on its own, much more than the stock 498T. I just couldn't get them to work together properly with the same EQ.
I too was considering both the PG and the A2P, which FWIW were also the top suggestions I had from SD's wizard.
Anyway I'm going to swap back the A2 in the 490R and test it on the next rehearsal session. I'll post an update.

Thanks,

Andrea
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

lemonman said:
A 490R should easily balance with a 57+, which has pretty high output for a PAF type, regardless of what magnet it has. Are you sure the 57's magnet isn't degaussed? If you like the 490R, I'd be trying to figure out why the 57s not giving you the output it should.
Click to expand...
I have no means of checking magnet strength. Anyway, my current main guitar has 3 single coils and is rather on the quiet side of things, so a reduction in output could make things easier when switching guitars.
Thanks,

Andrea
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

Quick update...
Replaced the AlnicoV in the 490 with its original AlnicoII. Still pretty louder than the 57+; also, the tone is a bit honkier than with the AlnicoV when on its own, while having a wee bit of single-coily, almost acoustic feel when paired with the 57.
The volume issue, though manageable, is beginning to pick on me. Today I tried to measure the DC resistance of the spare 498T (- in the mounting screw thread, + contact with the hot wire) and read 14.30 KOhm. Right, I know that DC resistance on its own is NOT an indicator of output or whatever, anyway after seeing a pic on the net showing the same operation performed on a Classic 57 with a 7.97 KOhm reading I reckoned that the 498 should have similar values... :boggled: Am I missing something?

Andrea
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

You said that you've always liked the stock neck pickup. What's the problem with it then, other than a volume mismatch? If it is just a volume mismatch, it's completely normal. It can me minimized by setting up the pickups, though.
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

ItsaBass said:
You said that you've always liked the stock neck pickup. What's the problem with it then, other than a volume mismatch? If it is just a volume mismatch, it's completely normal. It can me minimized by setting up the pickups, though.
Click to expand...

Hi
Yup, I do like the 490R. The only reason why I swapped magnets with the 498T is the lack of any other magnet to experiment with, as well as the idea of reducing the gap in the EQ between neck and bridge. Anyway, I didn't notice any volume unbalance between 490 and 498, while the 57+, which has a reputation as a hottish PAF-style, is significantly quieter than the 490 despite having been raised as much as possible and the 490 being almost level with its ring.

Andrea
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

The Classic 57n would work well, or like was said, a Pearly. One of my favorite neck pups is a Screamin' Demon...it has a more even EQ, is very articulate clean or with distortion, goes well with many many bridge pups.
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

I like the 57 I have paired with a 57+ in my goldtop. I also liked the SD Jazz pickups that I have had in the necks of various other guitars.
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

Il_Bès said:
Hi
Yup, I do like the 490R. The only reason why I swapped magnets with the 498T is the lack of any other magnet to experiment with, as well as the idea of reducing the gap in the EQ between neck and bridge. Anyway, I didn't notice any volume unbalance between 490 and 498, while the 57+, which has a reputation as a hottish PAF-style, is significantly quieter than the 490 despite having been raised as much as possible and the 490 being almost level with its ring.

Andrea
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It's hard to get a neck pickup to truly match a bridge pickup in volume, unless they are made very differently in terms of output. And when that match happens, you might not like the results tonally. I would never sacrifice a tone I liked just to cure a mildly annoying difference in volume. You may find that it's not a huge deal in real-world use. It's important to remember to make your judgements in the mix. A neck pickup may be louder when you are playing alone, but in the mix with your group, the difference is not so apparent, due to e.q. differences between the neck and bridge pickups (i.e. the bridge pickup "cuts through" more).
 
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Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

First of all, thank you all for your feedback.
To be honest, I probably expected something more from the 57+. It sure has been an improvement over the 498T, but it seems to lack the attitude that surprisingly enough the 490R shows, much more so now that most of the wax has gone. Also, it might just be me, but I've always associated a Les Paul with the throaty voice the 490 has plenty of and which is missing in the 57+. It almost seems as though the lead and rhythm positions have been swapped.
Some years ago, I briefly tested a made in Korea Epiphone Casino fitted with a 57n-57+ set and in all positions it sounded sweet or angry, depending mostly on how much you digged in. No such things happen with my current setup, the 490T is always a bit rude and the 57+ is always a bit soft no matter how hard (or soft) you play. I reckon I could possibly put some sweetness back in the 490 by repotting and resoldering the chrome cover, but I'm at a complete loss as what to do with the 57, except maybe going for different value pots; the only thing I'm certain of is that I'm not going to put the 498 back in its slot.
BTW, any suggestions as to the weird DC reading?

Andrea
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

Getting the lead/rhythm pups to MATCH is an interesting thing. Blueman is your goto there. It's his thing.

And an A@P and a PG are WORLDS APART tonally! You will love one or hate one. I'd say A@P is the way to go with Ash/Ebony.

I personally always want to know what people mean by "match"

Match VOLUME - not impossible to do, and personally I've never really had problems doing this even with high output + PAF combinations. That said, careful setting of heights, poles, and using the volume knob (perhaps with a 50's mod to keep the treble….).

Match TONE - again, most easily done with TWO of the SAME pickup. Now - if the reason you are doing this is to basically go from fat to thin on neck vs bridge….as a tonal change, ok. But it seems a little limiting to me. I prefer different but complimentary pickups most of the time. Bridge w/ miss, neck with scoop, or bridge with highs, neck fat, etc….makes the middle position much more interesting.

MAtch BOTH TONE AND VOLUME - at this point I would start asking why do you even use two pickups? And EQ pedal on one pup would be a lot more flexible and easy to achieve the sound.


Just some thoughts.
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

I would stick with the 490R and just change its bar magnet to an Alnico 4.
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

The dc resistance of the Classic + seems too low to me. Mine run about 9-9.5K

Before I did anything else, I'd try the classic in the neck position and the 490R in the bridge. That might just be the simplest solution of all.

Bill
 
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Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

Boogie Bill said:
The dc resistance of the Classic + seems too low to me. Mine run about 9-9.5K

Before I did anything else, I'd try the classic in the neck position and the 490R in the bridge. That might just be the simplest solution of all.

Bill
Click to expand...


Andrea, you have got Classic and not a classic +. That explain all the troubles you have.
Get a real Classic+ ...
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

Aceman said:
Match TONE - again, most easily done with TWO of the SAME pickup. Now - if the reason you are doing this is to basically go from fat to thin on neck vs bridge….as a tonal change, ok. But it seems a little limiting to me. I prefer different but complimentary pickups most of the time. Bridge w/ miss, neck with scoop, or bridge with highs, neck fat, etc….makes the middle position much more interesting.
Click to expand...

I use such a fat tone on my bridge pickups that I have to be very careful with my neck pickups, it's really easy for me to get mud in the neck.
 
Re: Tone quest - neck pickup to match a '57 Classic+?

Boogie Bill said:
The dc resistance of the Classic + seems too low to me. Mine run about 9-9.5K

Before I did anything else, I'd try the classic in the neck position and the 490R in the bridge. That might just be the simplest solution of all.

Bill
Click to expand...

First off, I didn't see the OP tell us the DCR of the pickup. The OP mentioned seeing an online reading of a '57 Classic that was just under 8K.

Secondly, there has been a ****-ton of variation from Gibson on their pickups, with winds all over the place. My Classic was about 8K (I used it in the neck spot), and my Classic Plus was about 8.5K. (These were c. 2003 model pickups that did not originally come in a guitar. I purchased them new from a dealer.)

To the OP, the 498's high DCR reading is not odd at all. Those pickups are wound pretty heavily (i.e. with a lot of turns of wire on the coils), while your standard old-school humbucker has a lot fewer turns.
 
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