ToneX. Game changer or just another gadget?

[Top-L]

Have any of you heard about the new IK Multimedia ToneX? Apparently it is a profiling system like the Kemper, but the hardware pedal that holds/plays the profiles only costs $400. (The profiling itself is handled in computer software.) In fact, the profiler allows you to create VST plugins that can be inserted in your host, which I don't think can be done by the other platforms.

People are saying it gets better results than the Kemper and Quad Cortex. Null tests seem to confirm this as well.

I almost clicked the "reserve now" button on Sweetwater, but something held me back. Concerns:

1) It adds 3ms latency to whatever rig you are using. So in an analog pedalboard, 3ms latency is nothing, but if you are adding it to the loop of a MFX processor, now you have two rounds of conversion plus 3ms... which for something like a Helix (or zoom g11) may well be above 10ms.. which I can absolutely feel. In this case a Kemper would still be a better live device.

2) I'm not sure I want to get into a "hunt and peck" profiling ecosystem, finding the perfect profiles and the perfect IRs. Everyone is raving about how accurate it is, but EVERY profile I've heard so far is a "can of bees" 5150. Do we really need this? I'd rather just twist the knobs on my modeler to get my sounds, it doesnt bother me that my tone is not a direct decendent of an actual tube amp.

Any other thoughts on this that could sway my decision?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...a-tonex-pedal-amplifier-cabinet-pedal-modeler

 

[Mincer]

I didn't like the sound on the promo video. But I hope it works really well in person. This would be a wonderful pedal if it sounds better than the video.

 

[Top-L]

I didn't like the sound on the promo video. But I hope it works really well in person. This would be a wonderful pedal if it sounds better than the video.

I searched for that video and couldnt find it. Apparently they gave every gear reviewer on Youtube a ToneX pedal and there are tons of gushing reviews.

Even if it is 99.9999% accurate, is it something that everyone needs in their rig?

 

[Mincer]

I am always doubtful about online reviewers, especially if they are given products. Those 'reviews' are paid for. I think the video I didn't like was the Reverb one. But if it sounds better in person (I'll wait until I try it myself), it would be a welcome addition to the guitar landscape, especially at that price.

 

[Etienne]

I've heard from more or less legit sources that the IKM Tonex tech not only makes it possible to sound like real (snapshots) but also delivers the corresponding feel of each capture.
Another thing: Tonex takes allegedly real overdrive and boost pedals in front well. High headroom but of course only as long as you don't clip the AD (analogue to digital) converter.

 

[Top-L]

I've heard from more or less legit sources that the IKM Tonex tech not only makes it possible to sound like real (snapshots) but also delivers the corresponding feel of each capture.
Another thing: Tonex takes allegedly real overdrive and boost pedals in front well. High headroom but of course only as long as you don't clip the AD (analogue to digital) converter.

Do you even need the pedal to use the software and do captures?

I *think* the ToneX software application does the profiling and/or allows you to load/play profiles in your projects as VSTs.

They may have it set up the the pedal is a dongle that enables certain features in the software, but I believe the pedal is just a way to port your profiles to a hardware rig.

That being said, I dont think I would need the pedal if the software does everything. Could use the tonex profiles as VSTs within something like Guitar Rig.

 

[Etienne]

Do you even need the pedal to use the software and do captures?

No. You don't need the pedal/hardware at all. You can purchase the Tonex software version and capture+play profiles without the pedal.

Could use the tonex profiles as VSTs within something like Guitar Rig.

You can load the Tonex player VST plugin in your DAW on your computer. You can also play the Tonex profiles within IK Multimedia's Amplitube 5.
But you can't load and play profiles in other brands' products like NI Guitar Rig which are not capable to host VSTs within.

 

[Etienne]

Everyone is raving about how accurate it is, but EVERY profile I've heard so far is a "can of bees" 5150.

Here's a video with something other than ultra gain amp setting captured by Tonex software.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I don't think it's a game changer, but it's certainly an interesting product. I mean, it really does nothing another product didn't already do before, it just does it an a more affordable price point.

Then again, I've never been a that interested in profiling because it's just a snapshot of the amp/cab/mic setup with certain settings. Yes, there's stuff you can adjust after the fact, but I mean, if I'm going digital, I'd rather go with the full adjustability of amp models at that point, personally.

but EVERY profile I've heard so far is a "can of bees" 5150

Sorry you don't like TOAN, man.

 

[jeremy]

that last vid sounds great, but its super wet too. i hate that cause i feel like it covers up so much of the natural tone of the simple amp

 

[Top-L]

You can load the Tonex player VST plugin in your DAW on your computer. You can also play the Tonex profiles within IK Multimedia's Amplitube 5.
But you can't load and play profiles in other brands' products like NI Guitar Rig which are not capable to host VSTs within.

I thought that GR6 could also be a VST host for plugins, but checking the manual, it has special versions of NI plugins that are integrated with GR6.

This was an exciting possibility because if GR6 could host VSTs, then you could save everything at the patch level and use GR6 switching, perhaps for a live rig.

Guitar Rig has pretty great effects, but the amp models are iffy.

 

[Top-L]

I saw on TGP that there is an open source profiler called "Neural Amp Modeler", that is as good as the commercial products. These methods have been published. Anyone with a computer science or data science background can figure it out.

Which brings up an interesting idea. If any amp can be profiled to within an inch of it's life, then the big players (L6, Boss, Fractal, etc), could create in-house profiling of any amp, and include them within their devices. It may be that Neural DSP has already been doing this for their plugins.

Which further means, I suspect in the next 2-3 years, that the Helix2 and the Boss Gt2000 will include profiled amps. and there will be a great convergence between the devices, because the profiles are all correct, all the models will sound essentially the same. It might come down to licensing.

I cant see Boss soldering on with their "Crunch" and "HI Gain" models when they could include a completely credible MarkV or JVM410 on board.

 

[Etienne]

that last vid sounds great, but its super wet too. i hate that cause i feel like it covers up so much of the natural tone of the simple amp

Here's a video with dry real amp, Quad Cortex and Tonex capture sound. You should only hear what the microphones in front of the speakers hear(d). No post-processing at all.

 

[justFred]

you can download for mac or PC: https://www.ikmultimedia.com/product.../#nl_form_area and try for free.
I tried it, didn't like it. Maybe their hardware/pedal version is better...

 

[Rex_Rocker]

IWhich further means, I suspect in the next 2-3 years, that the Helix2 and the Boss Gt2000 will include profiled amps. and there will be a great convergence between the devices, because the profiles are all correct, all the models will sound essentially the same. It might come down to licensing.

Do people who buy the Boss stuff actually use the amp models? I mean, obviously, to some extent, but is that like their main target? I don't know about the newest generation of Boss modelers, but in the past, I think the majority of the people who bought the GT stuff used it as a compliment to their amps. They just happened to have amp models as well if you needed them. But I've always had the impression the Boss GT target market is the people who use the effects with their real amps. Has that changed?

What I mean to say is I don't think Boss is as concerned with competing as much as Line 6. I mean, after all, Amplitube was competing with the Line 6 stuff since the Ampfarm plugin was available for ProTools only.

Ah, those were the days, LOL.

 

[Etienne]

you can download for mac or PC: https://www.ikmultimedia.com/product.../#nl_form_area and try for free.
I tried it, didn't like it. Maybe their hardware/pedal version is better...

I've tried the Tonex software too. Didn't really like one of the included/delivered captures. Perhaps because they were all amp setting snapshots I wouldn't exactly dial in.
I didn't do a capture myself. I think I give Tonex another chance. Capture one of my favorite amp gear setups I really love to play.

 

[Top-L]

Do people who buy the Boss stuff actually use the amp models? I mean, obviously, to some extent, but is that like their main target? I don't know about the newest generation of Boss modelers, but in the past, I think the majority of the people who bought the GT stuff used it as a compliment to their amps. They just happened to have amp models as well if you needed them. But I've always had the impression the Boss GT target market is the people who use the effects with their real amps. Has that changed?

What I mean to say is I don't think Boss is as concerned with competing as much as Line 6. I mean, after all, Amplitube was competing with the Line 6 stuff since the Ampfarm plugin was available for ProTools only.

Ah, those were the days, LOL.

The Boss Gt100 was a MFX processor with preamp models. The models actually sounded really good when run direct to an amplifiers power section. These are the same models in the Katana. The cab sims, OTH, were just passable.

The BOSS GT1000 has much improved cab sims. Before I returned it, I didn't try it out with real amps. The preamp models were not that different from the GT100 and the Katana imo, but there may have been some power amp simulation baked in. I thought the GT1000 modeling was better than the Helix I tried several years ago, but not good enough to keep because the old interface and difficulty of loading IRs. The Zoom G11 was just better imo.

Anyway... back to ToneX discussion. The genie may be out of the bottle. The research has been done and anyone can implement it now, fairly easily. Its just like IRs. Fractal was only one doing IR loading, now everyone can.

I think the next generation of modelers will compete on UI/features, licensed models, harware specification, and number/quality of effects. The models will probably all be based on profiling.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Yeah, maybe you liked the models better. I can totally understand that. Tone is a taste thing. But that doesn't really mean their models are better. Or maybe "better" is not the right word, but as advanced, rather.

Take a look at how the Line 6 stuff is way more in-depth, has more tweakable parameters (that are many times the same you have them on the real amp), and after all, Line 6 have done it for more years, and probably spent more resources on getting them where they are now. I'm not sure about how CPU-heavy the models are in either, but if I had to bet, I'd say there's more stuff going on under-the-hood with the Line 6 models. I'm pretty sure I've read they are advertising the Helix as using component-based modelling, much like Fractal. Maybe their algorithms aren't as "good", for a lack of a better term, but they are doing that processing. I don't see any mention of that in the Boss marketing.

Boss' main game has never been the models. At least not until recently. And yeah, maybe they stumbled across something good, but still, they're not as far in as Line 6 is.

But my whole point is not to argue with you like I'm saying the Boss stuff is bad, that you shouldn't like it. What I mean to say is I doubt Boss is as far in as to be concerned about being directly competing with IK.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Anyway... back to ToneX discussion. The genie may be out of the bottle. The research has been done and anyone can implement it now, fairly easily. Its just like IRs. Fractal was only one doing IR loading, now everyone can.

I agree. I'd still prefer it if companies spent more resources on getting the modeling tech more advanced rather than following the trend of profiling, but that's just me. Then again, the market is what is going to dictate what direction they go towards next.

But on a side note the IR stuff did become a thing before Fractal jumped on the bandwagon. At least in software plugins. ReValver comes to mind. Fractal's selling point has always been more like the quality of the actual modeling and how powerful their units are in order to run the models they use. If Fractal wanted to move into the profiling game, they could've done it way back already. (Hahaha, sorry to derail the thread, it's just I've been in the modeling game so long, I've become kinda passionate abou it )

 

[NegativeEase]

Forgive me if I am dubious on IK Multimedia making anything that is a "Game Changer"

Affordable fun stuff... sure.