Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

[Distorted1987]

Lately, I have been trying to tackle the song Blackened by Metallica and most of the riff parts using all downstrokes. After using the metronome for months, I built it up to speed and can play it and have been practicing it. The problem is, i get tense and tired, and after a while of practicing I have to slow down and start all over again with my metronome at like 150 and build back up to 182. Its like I can't handle the speed of the song for long periods of time. My arm even got bruised at one point from playing the riffs. Can anyone give me a suggestion on how to solve this problem? I have tried to figure it out myself, but I think the more i try to figure it out, the worse I get. It seems that I am even losing dexterity and control in my right hand and arm. I would appreciate any help that anyone has to offer.

 

[Akrin]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

What I'd personally try is - take a slightly slower speed (say 150-160) and play it at that speed, but for a long time. Keep trying to go longer, without increasing speed. That'll help to build stamina. Then once that speed becomes easy, start bumping it up slowly. Soon you'll conquer MoP at the original 210bpm :chairfall :laugh2:

 

[speed2dirt]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Relax!

When playing fast riffs, you are much quicker when you're comfortable. Leave your hand loose. Don't force each stroke, but rather, feel each one. Metal is the same as any other type of playing: you need to feel the rhythm. Many people think you need to be stiff and strongarm the guitar for metal. That's completely wrong in my opinion. Be smooth and relaxed. You'll get it.

 

[Distorted1987]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

First off, I would like to thank you both for your help "Thank you".

take a slightly slower speed (say 150-160) and play it at that speed, but for a long time. Keep trying to go longer, without increasing speed. That'll help to build stamina.

Lets say I have been playing at 150-160 for a while and I get really tense from a tired arm; do I keep playing or do I stop? I'm not sure because the following:

Relax!

When playing fast riffs, you are much quicker when you're comfortable. Leave your hand loose. Don't force each stroke, but rather, feel each one. Metal is the same as any other type of playing: you need to feel the rhythm.

I like the idea of relaxing and going with the music, and I can relax for a period of time before it starts getting tiring on my arm. At that point I will start to get sloppy unless I put some guts into it. Any suggestions anyone?

Thank you again. Great information!
:bowdown:

 

[nuntius]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Your arm is too tense, and you're probably holding your plectrum too hard also.

As speed2dirt said - just relax. Speed and stamina come only through practice... There are no shortcuts.

Also, watch your breathing. Make sure you aren't holding your breath whilst playing - it's a common fault that will cause you to tense up quickly. Try to keep your breathing regular. Some tips that will force you to seperate breathing+playing are - Have a conversation with someone while still playing guitar. Or, try reading a magazine/online article, out loud if possible.

 

[Distorted1987]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

I think I'll give the breathing thing a try, even though I don't know how my breathing was in the past. I have been practicing the same Metallica riffs almost every day for half a year, it is the longest I have been stuck on any riffs I believe. Thanks for the help! I am also thankful for an other suggestions that anyone else would like to give. Feedback is awesome.

 

[Davey]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

yea.. once you get tired, you need to push yourself slightly longer.
then play slower for a while and tackle the faster bit again.

take some time off of this and play diferent stuff, then start again.

it took me over a year to nail the MoP at its original speed, though i took 4 months off of the riff completely, cos i was so frustrated with it.

 

[Kommerzbassist]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Some tips that will force you to seperate breathing+playing are - Have a conversation with someone while still playing guitar. Or, try reading a magazine/online article, out loud if possible.

This also helps if you have problems singing and playing at the same time btw...

 

[speed2dirt]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

To get any specific strum pattern, I would approach it at a slower speed where you are playing exactly what you want to be playing. Many people aim for the speed of Metallica but miss the technical strum pattern. I recommend doing the opposite. Nail the strum pattern right from the beginning. The more comfortable you get with the riff, the quicker you can do it while being accurate.

 

[BigDreamer]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Very solid advice so far from everyone. I sometimes like to lift some weights, do pushups, ect.; just to really get good and pumped and warmed up. Also don't try and make this piece as fast as the original. Try to make it as fast as you can and just keep pushing it (like to the point it sounds like the song is on mega fast forward); do the same thing with any other song that comes along. Actually, I've gotten to a point where I can't find songs that really seem fast to me. Takes something like the fast parts in Slayer's "Can't Stand You" to even start to think holy crap. Though there is a point where things lose their musicality. None the less, I find enjoyment out of playing as fast as humanly possible. It's good exercise.

End of the blah, blah, blah for me.:rocket:

 

[BigDreamer]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Also, what gauge strings do you use? I use 11's and find the added string tension makes it less strenuous on my picking arm, especially on fast downstroked riffs.

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

okay,i think your problem is based on your picking style,
there are many players who move their arms during speed riffing,this will make you tired because of the whole muscle movement wich creates lactic acid.and you lose time so you have to move even faster.and get more tired.
the answer is simple.stay very close to strings ,leave a little edge of the pick to hit and stay close ,just move your hand very little to increase speed.Try to train very slow like "drunken wizdom" from overkill.
And don't forget ,guitar playing is not a muscle work.if you see marty friedman ,malmsteen ,Romeo ,they are not strong builded muscle bags!!!
try to use your hand parallel to the strings and just "shake" your wrist up and down.And the most important thing ,if you want to gain speed ,you have to find the best position to holding your guitar.
I wish you success!!

 

[Distorted1987]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Well, its been a while since my last post. I took your advice up to the point, where I was reading it. I'll have to say it helped quite a bit. For some reason I got a bruise on my arm from it, which made me feel good and bad at the same time. I've actually played the riff as well as MoP at tempos beyond(Faster than) their recordings with accuracy to my metronome.

However, I quit playing them for a bit due to tons upon tons of essays that I had to write. I'm going to try and build back up again. Its been fun practicing. Hopefully I'll be able to get the solo down here soon. It gets a little tricky and discouraging for me. I have a 22-fret guitar, so when he's playin up in the 24 and 23 fret. I found out that practicing bends up at the higher frets can be beneficial. Great stuff.

I'm planning on being more active on this forum in the future. Not a guarantee though.

 

[Perry D]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

just keep at it and dont stop. if it hurts your workin your hand out. i did that repeatedly. eventually i got to the point where i can almost play as fast as people alternate pick.

 

[Nightrunner]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Lately, I have been trying to tackle the song Blackened by Metallica and most of the riff parts using all downstrokes.

When you say you're using all downstrokes, do you mean you're not alternate picking? Next question -- why not? I've been playing this tune with my band for the last year or so, and I'd die if I had to play the whole tune with downstrokes... even just the main verse riff with all downstrokes would suck!

The first fast riff involves skipping between the E and D strings a lot...I basically end up starting with a downstroke on the open E and then upstroke on the 2nd fret (D string), then pretty much alternate pick staying with a downstroke for all the open E's.

The verse lick -- since I have to sing & play it at the same time, I may have simplified it a little, but it sounds right in context.

basically:

-D U D U D U --D U D U - - - U -D U D U D U
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------3---------------------------------------------------
-2-2-2-2-2-2--1------2-\-1----2-2-2-2-2-2------------------------
-0-0-0-0-0-0----2-3--------3--0-0-0-0-0-0------------------------


And for the 2nd ending:


- D U D U D U -D U D U D U
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
-3----------------------------------------------------------------
-1-----1------5-5-5-5-5-5----------------------------------------
---2-3---2-3--3-3-3-3-3-3----------------------------------------

Where D=downstroke & U=Upstroke


Maybe a bit too much detail, but I was bored & figured I'd try to help you out a little... and if I mistook what you meant by playing the song with all downstrokes, sorry! :smack:

When I had only been playing guitar for a few years, I read an interview with Scott Ian from Anthrax. In that interview, he talked about how he used to have to play all palm-muted chord stuff with downstrokes in order for it to sound "right." He then talked about how he worked and worked and worked on being able to achieve that same sound by palm-muting while alternate picking. Once he got it down, he said he was amazed at how much faster and longer he could play without experiencing muscle fatigue.

I took Scott's advice way back then & wouldn't have it any other way! I don't think my style would be my style without the ability to alternate pick & palm-mute at will--chords or single-note stuff... very important skills for a metal guitarist in my opinion!

Everyone else is right about relaxing... tension is the enemy! Picking is mostly about the wrist--maybe a little forearm, but mostly wrist.

Oh, and if you end up "bruising" your arm playing a song, you may want to take it easy for a bit. At 16, you'll probably not cause permanent damage, but if you overexert yourself too much too often, you might end up with problems later in life... Wouldn't it suck to find out you have carpal tunnel at age 29 and have a doctor tell you "you should probably stop playing the guitar..." ?!?



Sorry for the book!

--Nightrunner

 

[CGord]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

No, I think you got it right. It seems to be a macho thing to play thrash tempos & claim to not alternate pick. You're right on about the Scott Ian quote, too. I've got a couple of Anthrax live video releases, & they alternate pick all over the place.

Are you playing or exercising? Play it however you want to. To me, not alternate picking is wasting half your picking motion; if you can downpick at 210bpm, you could be going 420.

I do agree that there is a sound difference w/chords, since the higher note sounds first, but at a frenzied speed & especially while palm muting, how big a difference is it?

 

[Distorted1987]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Hey, its worth reading. I really I hope I don't turn 29 and find out I have something wrong with my wrist. That would be pretty devastating.

For the song 'Blackened' I play most of the riff parts (where your only playing 8th notes on 1 string, i.e. the main riff and the riff that follows right after.)

When it comes down to chord sections, such as the one chord progression (E5 VII Postion-D5-C5-F#5) I play them downstroke as well, until the last 2 chords that are in triplets (G5-F#5-E5)

The one section I kind of have trouble getting to sound right, not only tone, I think I can't figure out the notes as well (Unless I'm hearing the bass or something) I've made mistakes in the past with pitches and once I think I have its sound, its hard for me to realize I'm wrong.

Here is what the riff is kind of like
[---pm---] [pm-] [--pm------] [pm-]
D)- 2
A)- 2
E) -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-6-0-0-7-6-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-6-0-0-7-6-3-:

It proceeds right after the main riff.

I do agree that there is a sound difference w/chords, since the higher note sounds first, but at a frenzied speed & especially while palm muting, how big a difference is it?

Lots of people can pick up on the sound of up and down picks individually, but if its true and they can make it sound good, great. Some things they have to alternate pick because they are almost impossible to do all down picking. However, lots of the times, in metal, it can end up sounding sloppy when you play chords with alternate picking.

 

[Nightrunner]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Hey, its worth reading. I really I hope I don't turn 29 and find out I have something wrong with my wrist. That would be pretty devastating.

The one section I kind of have trouble getting to sound right, not only tone, I think I can't figure out the notes as well (Unless I'm hearing the bass or something) I've made mistakes in the past with pitches and once I think I have its sound, its hard for me to realize I'm wrong.

Here is what the riff is kind of like
[---pm---] [pm-] [--pm------] [pm-]
D)- 2
A)- 2
E) -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-6-0-0-7-6-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-6-0-0-7-6-3-:

It proceeds right after the main riff.



Lots of people can pick up on the sound of up and down picks individually, but if its true and they can make it sound good, great. Some things they have to alternate pick because they are almost impossible to do all down picking. However, lots of the times, in metal, it can end up sounding sloppy when you play chords with alternate picking.

The riff you're talking about is the verse riff... I spelled it out pretty well in my previous post if you're interested. The "second ending" part I tabbed is during the "Throwing all you see, into obscurity" part during the first verse.

Here's how I play the main riff:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------3-------------------------------------------
---2---2---2-3-2---2---2---2----2---2---2-3-2--3--------------------
-------------------------------------------------1-----2-1-1----------
-0---0---0-------0---0--------0---0---0-----------2-3-------3--------


----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---2---2---2-3-2---2---2---2----2---2---2-3-2--3--------------------
--------------------------1----------------------1-----2-1-1----------
-0---0---0-------0---0--------0---0---0-----------2-3-------3--------


Then repeat & do the altered ending to flow into following sections... That's basically it & like I said, downstroke on the open E's... You have to do a double down-pick at the end of the triplet into the next open E to stay with the all-down-picked open E's pattern, but it's not too bad once you get it.

& after having played metal of all kinds for my entire musical life (as well as a lot of symphonic music on the viola...), I have to say that the all down-picked myth is simply a limitation--- don't buy it! Like I said before, if I couldn't alternate pick & palm mute chords, I couldn't play all the nifty stuff that my band does!

I do agree that in certain places all down-picking is more appropriate, but I view picking like a violist views bowing--you put the ups & downs where they make the most sense & sometimes do hammer-ons/pull-offs instead if the phrasing calls for it.. Nothing worse than the totally mechanical sound of incessant alternate picking!

Once you start playing stuff at a certain speeds, down picking everything becomes a moot point anyway because it just wouldn't be possible.


Hope that helps! And good luck with the solos--remember this hint for that blistering downwards run from the 24th: stay on the high E for the majority & learn how to descend smoothly by alternating between 1-3 & 1-2 fingerings as needed depending on whether the next interval down is a whole step or a half step. Basically using alternating between two finger patterns to play descending triplets. This technique may take awhile to master, but it is key!


--Nightrunner

 

[Nightburst]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Try playing some NOFX. If you get the hang of that technique you will be forced to relax while playing fast. Worked for me.

 

[YJM_Rocks]

Re: Tons of Downstrokes {Help}

Relax

Practice naked. :laugh2: