Tracking bass is tedious

Re: Tracking bass is tedious

I didn't say they are better, but as an avid listener I can honestly say newer productions lose their appeal very quickly. I sincerely doubt many if any of today's recordings will have the same impact 20 years from now. This has nothing to do with song writing as I do think there are some amazing songs being written now. This isn't a personal opinion it's just the way the human brain is wired.

I'm pretty sure it has to be an opinion, because it's definitely not empirical fact.

Like I said, it's impossible to find an unbiased user-base to test the theory on - I don't find newer productions to lose their appeal any more quickly than I do older productions, but that's because I was raised on newer productions. Finding someone who wasn't raised on either set of the fence is impossible without introducing people who aren't used to hearing recorded music at all, and that wouldn't make for an effective test-subject
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Care to post it? If the "just what I said" part is referring to the human ear preferring organic sounds, I'm not going to argue that one. The part I have trouble digesting without throwing the "that's because you're old" card into play is the bit about older productions having more and a longer lasting impact than newer ones.
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

The part I have trouble digesting without throwing the "that's because you're old" card into play is the bit about older productions having more and a longer lasting impact than newer ones.

Well, that's fine I'm speaking for myself on that. I do however trust my own instincts and If I'm around in twenty years we can discuss it then! ;)

Regarding the study I read it years ago so I don't know where it is.
 
Last edited:
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Not tedious if the drummer and bassist have their parts locked down super tight.
 
Last edited:
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Sometimes the best bass notes are none at all simple good beats are sometimes all you need
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Regarding the study I read it years ago so I don't know where it is.

Uh huh.

Confirmation bias is an ugly thing, homie. This certainly is personal opinion. "What records will still be interesting and people will listen to in 20 years" isn't something you can figure out with an empirical formula with any sort of accuracy. It's too broad. Too general.

I respect that you don't like modern production techniques. This certainly is an area where personal taste comes into play. But to state that your way is the only way that has any sort of longevity conjures visions of a wizened old man waving his cane and yelling at kids to get off his lawn. Lets get real here.
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Uh huh.

Confirmation bias is an ugly thing, homie. This certainly is personal opinion. "What records will still be interesting and people will listen to in 20 years" isn't something you can figure out with an empirical formula with any sort of accuracy. It's too broad. Too general.

I respect that you don't like modern production techniques. This certainly is an area where personal taste comes into play. But to state that your way is the only way that has any sort of longevity conjures visions of a wizened old man waving his cane and yelling at kids to get off his lawn. Lets get real here.

The study is real, homie or should (I say son?). I never said I don't like modern production or that my way is the right way. What I said was that it grows old as a listener quickly. Do you know who BT is? He corrects his music down to the sample level, he's a fantastic musician but I tell you those records get tired in about 5 listens. Kids today I tell ya, get off my ****in lawn!!! :)

By the way the study simply says that humans prefer organic forms of music over machine generated.
 
Last edited:
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Im not much for tons of editing, in particular cause live the singer sounds pitchy and his tone is not so great, compared to the recordings. its not like recordings are gonna make the band as much money as the live shows.

bass does not get drowned out live either,
but volume levels can be hard to control. best thing to do is get good at bass - know loudness and playing on diff strings; also there are volume limiter pedals to use before mixing. also, if you compress a ton, the volume levels are not going to be so dramatic.

I bet some of the more organic honest sounding stuff from raw bands is processed more than we assume. rolling stones does sound very honest though, it comes through and does not sound so mechanical. just like I wouldnt want an electronic drums if I had my druthers; computer stuff is just way too exact!
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Agreed, won't argue with that. The issue that you run into when you're recording a guy who has no groove or a terrible groove to begin with - no sense in preserving that!

Or recording it in the first place. If they insist I don't mind providing a high def dcoument of their suckage.
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Because you do still miss out on things like unique pick strokes per hit (if he's using a pick), organic changing of velocities as the song goes (there is quite a bit of dynamic content, especially after the processing to fit it into the mix), slides up and down not sounding accurate, gliss-up's not sounding accurate, and the overall 'breath' that the bass will add to the low end. Consider it kind of like a POD vs real amp recording scenaro with guitars; the POD can sound pretty good, but it adds a sort of static 'air' to the feel of the mix, whereas a real amp will breathe and pump much more naturally with the track. The same goes for real vs programmed bass in the low end.

A bassist is still essential to me in the recording process, just like a drummer, guitarist, and vocalist is. If you have it in your head that editing notes into place removes the need for human involvement, that's just simply not true. Bass and drums are the easiest instruments to 'fake,' but the end result of programming drums and bass is hugely different to that of recording real instruments and editing them.

If the bassist is really geting into the track and digging in with his pick, I want to hear that grind and aggression.

What I don't want to hear, in any way, shape, or form, is the kick drum and pick attack of the bass flamming against each other, hitting 32nd or 64th notes apart. That sounds terrible to my ear, and removes me from the entire groove of the song.

If the bassist is great to begin with, not much work at all will be done. If he's not and he's going to compromise the sound of the recording, though, I'm going to edit his tracks into oblivion if that's what it takes.

Thanks! That's exactly the kind of detailed answer I was looking for.

I think - and I'm sure you agree - it's really just about getting the best representation of the songs as possible, by whatever means are at one's disposal.

...and the more I think about it, the harder time I'm having coming up with any genre or aesthetic that actually benefits from an out-of-sync rhythm section - even the crustiest punk band sounds better with bass and drums that are locked together.
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Or recording it in the first place. If they insist I don't mind providing a high def dcoument of their suckage.


I think - and I'm sure you agree - it's really just about getting the best representation of the songs as possible, by whatever means are at one's disposal.


The second quote answers the first - the "if he sucks then let him suck and everyone who listens to the CD will hear how bad of a player he is" argument is 100% wrong, because he's not the one who's going to be getting the blame in the end. People are going to hear the recording, hear how sloppy and un-tight it is, and think "Wow, this recording sucks. I wonder what hack did it?"

It's my job to produce the best sounding record possible given the circumstances they provide. If they provide a crappy drummer or bassist, both of which will be detrimental to the sound of the record, I will edit them until they sound good. If you want sloppy sounding records out there with your name on to them, then by all means go ahead and leave sloppy bass parts un-edited.

The problem is that you cannot mix sloppy performances and expect any kind of quality outcome. Unless sloppiness was the goal from the outset, the product you will end up with will suck as bad as the performances do. This is why well played, tightly performed parts almost mix themselves.



I never said I don't like modern production or that my way is the right way. What I said was that it grows old as a listener quickly. Do you know who BT is? He corrects his music down to the sample level, he's a fantastic musician but I tell you those records get tired in about 5 listens. Kids today I tell ya, get off my ****in lawn!!! :)

By the way the study simply says that humans prefer organic forms of music over machine generated.


Once again - the mystery study you're citing does not support your argument at all, because it says nothing about the longevity of or how well a given recording will hold up against time.

You say that "it grows old as a listener quickly" but that you're not implying that "[your] way is the right way." I can't reconcile those two statements given that the first implies an inherent wrong. It is 100% an opinion, as cannot be backed either way by empirical evidence (unless you've got access to a time machine that you're keeping a secret from the world?).

And yes, I'm sure Krank has heard of BT; we were both talking about how good Binary Universe was just last week. He corrects his music down to the sample level because he's usually glitching the hell out of things, and even then I don't think it gets old in 5 listens because I was raised on music with a similar production level.

Actually, come to think of it, there are some records that get tired to me in 5 listens or so... they're the ones with the undefined top end, constant clashing between instruments, laughable use of panning and reverb, and overall lack of impact/punch - you know, "classics" like the Stones, Beatles, Springsteen, Eagles, etc records that get heralded all the time as sounding so much better than modern productions.
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Once again - the mystery study

We can agree to disagree, I'm not trying to sway you either way. I do however resent being called a liar. If you want to start a thread about the merits of production techniques I'm up for that. I've said what I had to say.
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

The second quote answers the first - the "if he sucks then let him suck and everyone who listens to the CD will hear how bad of a player he is" argument is 100% wrong, because he's not the one who's going to be getting the blame in the end. People are going to hear the recording, hear how sloppy and un-tight it is, and think "Wow, this recording sucks. I wonder what hack did it?"

If you think the average listener blames the producer/engineer for a bad record you are on drugs. They just know if they like it or not. I refuse to fabricate t talent. If you suck the world should know it. Its guys like you that have saddled us with no talent ass hats all over the radio by fabricating performances they are in no way capable of actually giving just to make a buck. You can spin it all you want but at the end of the day you put a talented musician back into a day job in favor of a hack just to line your pockets. If it puts food on the table that's your business but don't pretend its something besides what it is and was done for any reason other than to make a buck
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

We can agree to disagree, I'm not trying to sway you either way. I do however resent being called a liar. If you want to start a thread about the merits of production techniques I'm up for that. I've said what I had to say.

I'm not calling you a liar, and it wouldn't be to the benefit of my argument to do so. The study your citing bears no relevance to the argument we're having - I was simply calling it a "mystery study" because we don't know exactly where it came from. Nothing sinister or defamatory - I actually agree with the results you've relayed from the study.

If you think the average listener blames the producer/engineer for a bad record you are on drugs. They just know if they like it or not. I refuse to fabricate t talent. If you suck the world should know it. Its guys like you that have saddled us with no talent ass hats all over the radio by fabricating performances they are in no way capable of actually giving just to make a buck. You can spin it all you want but at the end of the day you put a talented musician back into a day job in favor of a hack just to line your pockets. If it puts food on the table that's your business but don't pretend its something besides what it is and was done for any reason other than to make a buck

Yeah, it's all my fault that musicians suck these days - totally valid. It has nothing to do with the general public's taste (or lackthereof) and major labels pushing for cash-cow artists.

I did jack **** to the talented musician - talented musicians still shine above fabricated hacks. If he decides to give up because he wrongly feels he can be 100% replaced by editing a crappy musician, that's his own problem. Sure, it's another hurdle in the road, but making a living as a musician has never been easy. If you want to make it, sack up and do what it takes. Adapt to a changing market, don't just blame the modern music industry.

The average listened won't blame the producer/engineer, but other bands (AKA potential clients) certainly will. Messy performances = messy mixes, and messy mixes are not what I specialize in. It's also not what a label will accept - if a record isn't up to par to you other work or to other records it'll be competing with, you're done as a producer. It doesn't matter that the musicians suck and aren't capable of producing the result that's demanded of them; if I don't produce results, I'm out of a job.

Again, don't blame the engineers - do you think they want to be editing and quantizing the hell out of every note? It's not like I grew up dreaming of becoming a pro-audio janitor. I want to make great records with great musicians, but I have to work with the hand I've been dealt.
 
Last edited:
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

The solution here for all of you is to stop focusing so narrowly on production value or style and remember to listen to the damn songs.

Discounting a good song because it was performed by hack musicians with studio help is as asinine to me as discounting the Stones or Beatles because their records don't sound like American Idiot.

At that point you really have lost sight of what's important.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

To me, a superb song that sends shivers up and down my spine couldn't be made any better by having it quantized perfectly in time, and pitch corrected to perfection.

Still, preproduction is the whole key. Having the bassist and drummer be able to lock up tight in rehearsal is going to translate into a good record.
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Every track I play, whether it's guitar or drums or bass or keys or whatever is about 2 weeks work ahead of time. I'll listen to the preliminary tracks on the way to work and back, and compose them in my head. Sometimes it takes longer. My vocalist (and the other half of the business) gets impatient at times, but I refuse to release any track before its time (just like that awful wine, forget the name).
 
Re: Tracking bass is tedious

Actually, come to think of it, there are some records that get tired to me in 5 listens or so... they're the ones with the undefined top end, constant clashing between instruments, laughable use of panning and reverb, and overall lack of impact/punch - you know, "classics" like the Stones, Beatles, Springsteen, Eagles, etc records that get heralded all the time as sounding so much better than modern productions.

thats scary man, zeppelin and sabbath records are all that matters! heh those beatles records are sold year in year out, and I certainly listen to em year in and year out. great songs! production is fine on em methinkz :bandit:

I dig retro production, panning and reverb. check out these guys, they rock! http://jp.myspace.com/blackrebelmotorcycleclub
 
Back
Top