Treble bleed recipes for Strats

[DreX]

I've been trying different combinations of caps and resistors to get a better volume roll off behavior on my Strats, especially the ones with darker overwound pickups. I'm curious if anyone has come up with any combos and values they like more than others.

One thing I'm finding works good for me is combining the Kinman treble bleed, which has a resister and cap in series, and the more typical treble bleed with the cap and resister in parallel, so that you have the cap and resistor tied together which then lead into yet another resister. The function of the resister tied together in parallel with the cap is to let (mostly) balanced signal side step around the cap so that the bleed is not just strictly made up of high frequencies, and the purpose of the second resister that comes after the cap/resister pair is to reduce the influence of the pair in general so that as the volume is rolled down close to zero on the pot you, don't get an overabundance of the bleed tone.

One thing I discovered also is that jumping the "pickup in" and "output out" lugs on the volume pot can be good for more than just a treble bleed. Just putting a 150k ohm resister across the lugs makes the taper a little less logarithmic, and while that defies the concept of "audio taper", when you're using your "modern wired" volume with overdrive, it doesn't have a natural audio taper regardless, and what I find is that jumping the lugs with a resistor creates a broader usable range in the volume sweep and make the capacitor treble bleed less necessary. This is especially true as you roll off the volume to a point where the pot by itself would be attenuating highs that are being preserved by the jump resistor of lower value. It allows the overdrive to stay crunchier longer before becoming either anemic or tinny, almost as if you were working the gain dial on your amp.

There's a cool post on another forum where someone calculated the effect of various treble bleed mods http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5317/treble-bleed-circuit?page=1 , it's very interesting and elucidated why I dislike the 50's mod. It's frequency profile is pretty bizarre compared to the various treble bleed mods, and you have the choice of either using your volume pot or your tone pot, but if you roll both at once you get higher frequencies, which is counter intuitive and harder to work with.

What I'm leaning towards now after messing with caps and resistors for an hour is a 640pF cap and 220k ohm resister in parallel, both in series with a 150k ohm resistor, all between the pickup and output volume pot lugs. The result is more subtle than other treble bleed mod values I've seen and it makes the top end of the volume sweep louder and richer than standard modern wiring.

Have you found any combos that you like?

 

[dystrust]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

It's a different solution, but have you considered dumping the treble bleed and wiring the tone control 50s style? It's usually a solution for humbucker or P-90 guitars, but I wired my Strat that way after trying a few treble bleeds and not liking any of them. I used standard 250K pots for volume / tone and changed the tone cap from .047uf to .022uf because the former rolled off a bit too much. The end result is a volume control that doesn't turn to mud as you turn it down, and the volume / tone interaction changes a bit in a IMO helpful way.

 

[David Collins]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

I've not tried that combination, but it sounds like a pretty ideal arrangement if you want to keep it minimal and not emphasize the highs too terribly much as you roll back. It would also be only a modest change to the taper, slowing down the top roll off just a bit from before. Sounds brilliant to me.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

I just realized that my Tele is wired with the ultra simple Treble Bleed (.001uF cap in parallel) and it definitely becomes pretty bright as you roll down the volume. I think I'll give your multi resistor + cap method a try...

 

[DreX]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

I just realized that my Tele is wired with the ultra simple Treble Bleed (.001uF cap in parallel) and it definitely becomes pretty bright as you roll down the volume. I think I'll give your multi resistor + cap method a try...

In defense of a Tele, people often want it bright to preserve the twang. I'd love to know what you think of the values / scheme I'm using with two resistors, but also try this popular Kinman mod since it's somewhat popular. I'd drop the .001uF down to a 600 / 400 pF and increase the resistor to 220k ohm to make the whole thing a little more subtle though. A lot of people hate treble bleeds and I think it's because various value recipes tend to go overboard with high frequency retention, and so people end up thinking a treble bleed is an all or nothing proposition. Amazon sells resistor and capacitor assortments for $15 or so, so experimenting is plenty easy to do, if you're going to do it at all.

 

[DreX]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

It's a different solution, but have you considered dumping the treble bleed and wiring the tone control 50s style? It's usually a solution for humbucker or P-90 guitars, but I wired my Strat that way after trying a few treble bleeds and not liking any of them. I used standard 250K pots for volume / tone and changed the tone cap from .047uf to .022uf because the former rolled off a bit too much. The end result is a volume control that doesn't turn to mud as you turn it down, and the volume / tone interaction changes a bit in a IMO helpful way.

According to this http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5317/treble-bleed-circuit?page=1 , this is what 50's wiring produces frequency-wise as you roll off the pot



That's... a mess, and people might like it because within that mess is a desired outcome. What I've found is that it's a shot in the dark, with some pickups/pots/caps is has almost no effect at all, and others it has too much of the effect. On my Strat with darker Texas Specials it wasn't enough, on my Tele with Nocasters, which are rather bright pickups, it was way too much. At least it can be said that with a treble bleed you have choices over what happens.

I also disagree that the tone/vol interaction with 50's wiring is a beneficial thing. If you have the tone knob rolled down, then you get muffled sound at full volume and clear sound at low volume. If I have the tone knob down, then I don't want highs poking through at at any volume. It's pretty rare that I have both the volume and tone rolled at the same time though, so for me it's neither here nor there.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

Maybe we like different things, or the pickups we're using may respond differently. The only non-Gibson style guitar I currently have wired this way is my Strat which is wired SSL-2 / SSL-2 / SSL-6T. My Strat is also a Charvel Model 1A with a basswood body and maple neck/fb with angled headstock.

 

[scorch]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

I spent a rainy Saturday testing cap/resistor combos with two wires and alligator clips to the volume pot. Tried series and parallel versions (Kinman vs. SD). In the end he one I liked most was a 470pf cap in series with a 330k ohm resist paralleled across the pot. The SD version loaded down the pot too much for my taste.

I also tried the '50's mod. While I love it for humbuckers, I really didn't like it for single coils...let too much treble through for me.

The 470pf/330k was 'just right'.

 

[DreX]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

The 470pf/330k was 'just right'.

I'll try that. Those are definitely much more conservative values than either the Seymour Duncan or Kinman mods.

Here's the Seymour Duncan treble bleed for reference. Maybe it works well for humbuckers, but for vintage single coils it makes for a very thin sound almost right away.




I think the Kinman mod is intended for single coils, but it's also too aggressive and sends the bass to ground at a faster rate than treble. Assuming this graph of the Kinman mod is accurate, you can see the treble is much more prominent as you roll off.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

I always hated the names on all of these mods. That "treble bleed" mod is actually boosting treble (as the pot gets turned down) but to the casual observer it sounds like it would "bleed off" treble.

 

[DreX]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

I think technically it's a high pass filter, but I'm just going with convention.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

Yeah not your fault

The thing is. This treble bleed mod is a HPF and you (OP) should really put it onto its own pot, so that it doesn't always automatically engage and disengage as you turn up or down the volume. There isn't a good way to fine-tune how it behaves. And how exactly it behaves depends on the input impedance of your first active rig state.

Likewise, the "50s mod" (the implementation using that name that we discuss here) is nothing else than "auto-engaging" the tone pot as you turn down the vol pot. It gives you no new capabilities. It just can come in handy if you happen to have turned down it this way anyway.

I am waiting to put both of these mods into the same guitar...

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

Humbuckers... no treble bleed.

Single coils.... Seymours. My dimarzio Prewired Paul Gilbert pickguard came with a nifty small one... don't know the values for it but its like seymours.

50's mod is horrible. and NOW since Lew shot down his former stance on it... all the herd also agrees. It is bad.

Of course virtually every Hamer guitar came factory wired with the "50's Mod" - and most people who've owned a Hamer know they're great sounding guitars.

All the "50's Mod" is, is putting the tone control after the volume control instead of before it.

Hamer's with two volumes and one tone connect the tone control to the output jack - after the volume controls. I guess that's the only way a master tone could be connected.

I like what the 50's Mod does when I'm plugging straight into my amp and not using an overdrive pedal.

But with an overdrive pedal (I use a Klon clone from PCE - the Aluminum Falcon) I do prefer standard wiring. The overall sound is fatter and beefier.

As for treble bleed mods, in a Strat, I like what Lindy Fralin recommends: 2200 pf cap and 220K resistor...like so:

 

[DreX]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

The thing is. This treble bleed mod is a HPF and you (OP) should really put it onto its own pot, so that it doesn't always automatically engage and disengage as you turn up or down the volume. There isn't a good way to fine-tune how it behaves. And how exactly it behaves depends on the input impedance of your first active rig state.

I actually do have dedicated treble knobs on my guitars with higher output pickups that can stand to have some bass thrown out, like Strats with SSL-4's and mini humbuckers in the neck and middle. I've been doing a veritone-like mod that lets me choose between six caps for the tone knob which I love evn more than high pass filters, so I don't have any spare knobs left and I like to keep them looking stock with respect to the controls.

Likewise, the "50s mod" (the implementation using that name that we discuss here) is nothing else than "auto-engaging" the tone pot as you turn down the vol pot. It gives you no new capabilities. It just can come in handy if you happen to have turned down it this way anyway.

I don't think that's true. The tone pot is still asserting it's 250k / 500k ohm resistance between hot lead and ground regardless, but what changes with 50's wiring is that the pickups lose that 250k/500k load progressively as you roll back the volume, so the pickups are actually becoming brighter at the same rate at which highs are being attenuated by the additional resistance. It's like a tug of war over the highs, and that result is close to a tie.

If you were to use a "no load" tone pot and have it at 10 in "no load" mode, 50's wiring should have no effect since the pickups are never subject to the tone pot's load in the first place.

With respect to no new capabilities, I think you actually lose a capability, that is to fine tune between the volume and tone pots, since 50's wiring changes the behavior of the tone pot as you decrease the volume. It's like trying to tune with a floating brdige, where as you tighten one string, the other five detune.

 

[DreX]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

Of course virtually every Hamer guitar came factory wired with the "50's Mod" - and most people who've owned a Hamer know they're great sounding guitars.

As for treble bleed mods, in a Strat, I like what Lindy Fralin recommends: 2200 pf cap and 22K resistor...like so:

View attachment 52454

Do you mean 220K resistance? A 22K resistor in parallel with a cap would allow the signal to almost entirely circumvent the capacitor, you wouldn't even know it was there audibly.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

Do you mean 220K resistance? A 22K resistor in parallel with a cap would allow the signal to almost entirely circumvent the capacitor, you wouldn't even know it was there audibly.

Yes 220K and a 2200 pf cap. That's what Lindy likes and recommends.

I don't use a R/C network on any of my guitars - I was just showing what Lindy likes.

And it does sound good with single coils.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

I actually do have dedicated treble knobs on my guitars with higher output pickups that can stand to have some bass thrown out, like Strats with SSL-4's and mini humbuckers in the neck and middle. I've been doing a veritone-like mod that lets me choose between six caps for the tone knob which I love evn more than high pass filters, so I don't have any spare knobs left and I like to keep them looking stock with respect to the controls.



I don't think that's true. The tone pot is still asserting it's 250k / 500k ohm resistance between hot lead and ground regardless, but what changes with 50's wiring is that the pickups lose that 250k/500k load progressively as you roll back the volume, so the pickups are actually becoming brighter at the same rate at which highs are being attenuated by the additional resistance. It's like a tug of war over the highs, and that result is close to a tie.

If you were to use a "no load" tone pot and have it at 10 in "no load" mode, 50's wiring should have no effect since the pickups are never subject to the tone pot's load in the first place.

With respect to no new capabilities, I think you actually lose a capability, that is to fine tune between the volume and tone pots, since 50's wiring changes the behavior of the tone pot as you decrease the volume. It's like trying to tune with a floating brdige, where as you tighten one string, the other five detune.

Argh!

Now you did what I hate most. Different actual wiring both labeled as "50s mod". Guitarists and electronics...

One is "connect the tone port capacitor to the volume pot slider so that it auto-engages".

The other one is "connect the volume pots backwards".

There was a third that escapes me right now.

Of course every time I bring this up there's a person telling me that no I'm wrong, "50s mod" always means the same thing - except it is a different one every time

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

Argh!

Now you did what I hate most. Different actual wiring both labeled as "50s mod". Guitarists and electronics...

One is "connect the tone port capacitor to the volume pot slider so that it auto-engages".

The other one is "connect the volume pots backwards".

There was a third that escapes me right now.

Of course every time I bring this up there's a person telling me that no I'm wrong, "50s mod" always means the same thing - except it is a different one every time

You can also just connect the tone control to the output jack hot. That's how Hamer does it...or did it.

The way to do the 50's Mod, at least to me, is to connect the tone control after the volume control. And there's a few different ways to do that.

In a Les Paul it's easy: just move the tone cap from the input of the volume control (same terminal the pickup is connected to) to the output (the middle terminal).

 

[DreX]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

Of course every time I bring this up there's a person telling me that no I'm wrong, "50s mod" always means the same thing - except it is a different one every time

Sorry, I'm only familiar with the "simply move the tone from the pickup lug to the output lug!" version.

 

[dotnetbrett]

Re: Treble bleed recipes for Strats

I just realized that my Tele is wired with the ultra simple Treble Bleed (.001uF cap in parallel) and it definitely becomes pretty bright as you roll down the volume. I think I'll give your multi resistor + cap method a try...

I have a simple Treble Bleed on my Telecaster and some very nice pups on it. I took off the simple and I didn't like the tone and put it on and its great now. I think I just got used to it. IThe simple on Telecaster is the ONLY Treble bleed one should use on that Guitar