Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

[Larioso]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

Could you clarify what you mean? The bridge is set the same as when I first installed it, so it's not that the bridge doesn't fit or I don't know how to install it.

And what do you mean in your point a)? Neither my strings or saddles are in the video. Also with point b) how would setting my action affect sideways motion of the tren claw? The screws prevent sideways motion.

In short, I do not believe that string height is the problem here. Actually looking at it, the action wasn't even adjusted, so that wouldn't be a variable.

My thinking was this
a) in video in balance the claw is clearly not in middle
b) so how do I get claw in middle - move arm forward
c) but as arm is moved - height of saddles are changing
d) so guessing you are comfy now with action of strings - but arm need go forward
e) what happend if arm goes forward a bit - saddles go up or down ?
f) compensate action with how the position of arm must be to have claw in middle as tuned up

If to get claw in middle as tuned up arm goes forward a bit
a) if saddles goes up doing that - then move saddle in bridge down
b) is saddles goes down doing that - the move saddle up in bridge

And if image in my head is correct - this will make claw be in middle and your string action maintained.
And you can continue setup and hopefully movement will be enough without claw hitting either wall or springs become loose..
I think I might go for a third spring, but test your way.

On my syncronized trem in strat - the 6 screws can be used to stop movement up of arm. The is a bevel/tilt of surface at where screws are. this is different from what I see in this trem you have. So you might have to stop movement of arm as you feel you reach the end.

But balanced I think is good start, same movement each way.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

To Demanic: ^ Exactly. Well, not "enough" tension, rather. The claw is way out....which leads me to believe that the so-called tech perhaps installed lower tension strings, causing the problem of the bridge plate leaning backwards.

 

[Chris Pile]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

Uhm, am I the only one who has noticed that there is no tension on the vibrato springs?

I am late to the party and just watched the video... You are correct.
I haven't decided what conclusion to reach yet, except to say that trem system setup is all kinds of ****ed up.
Wish I could see the guitar....

 

[BadAspen]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

Here's what happened from start to finish.

Guitar has D'Addario EXL116 strings and a locking nut. Everything works fine.

Headstock breaks off, screw holes in neck pocket strip, causing neck to "bow" forward. Locking nut keeps strings on guitar. I did an extensive check to see what the damages were. Nothing wrong with bridge.

Guitar tech repairs stripped neck pocket, coronavirus quarentine begins, weeks pass, guitar tech repairs headstock, offers me 30% off for the wait and throws in an extra set of EXL116s.

I check the guitar today everything is as it was before the break except the trem claw is screwed in as deep as possible. I back the screws out until I can get the bridge flush with the top and in tune.

There is no way he replaced the springs as the Vegatrem has a mechanism so you can lock the springs in place and it requires a hex key smaller than most sets offer.

 

[BadAspen]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

Uhm, am I the only one who has noticed that there is no tension on the vibrato springs?

Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

If I put any more tension on the springs the back of the bridge will sink into the body.

 

[Chris Pile]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

If I put any more tension on the springs the back of the bridge will sink into the body.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. It would have nice to see a picture of the actual guitar to start with. Your trem routing is deep enough to allow pulling up of the trem, so you must set it up as a balanced system.

Do you not want it to pull up? You could put a block in the back of the guitar to prevent that...

This will sound weird, but have you tried it with one spring yet? Back in the 80's I set up a Floyd for a client that required this for the system to float. The spring was really tight, as I remember.

 

[nexion218]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

I have zero experience with the actual Vegatrem, but are those springs supposed to be on the trem claw screws? I am sure it make most of the rattle when they push the claw back up against the screws...

 

[Jacew]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

Like Demanic noted there should be tension on the springs. Get lower tension springs and tighten the claw so you get trem parallel to body.

Fact that you had such work done on the neck and botched trem setup of tech would make me vary enough to make sure guitar intonates properly. There's certainly something strange happened on the fix.

Also make sure all the screws are tight and properly installed on trem itself first.

Edit: Note that Vegatrem pivots around shaft, so you want trem screws hold tight on the body. Not like regular strat trem thats pivots on the screws.

 

[nexion218]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

I've been watching OP's vid in slo-mo for minutes now. Thos e springs on the trem claw screws still look fishy to me. Were they always there? Never seen such thing, I don't really see what the benefit would be. If you watch the video carefully, it in fact impedes the motion of the claw. First time around I suspected that that the springs push back the claw in position, but after watching it in slo-mo, it is the complete opposite. The spring stops the claw at a certain point, the the actual tremolo spring keep moving backwards due to the motion of the bridge and when the bridge is let up, the string tension violently yanks the ring of the tremolo springs against the claw and then the whole assemly against the head of the claw screw. To me, it is rather dangerous, as the rings become so loose around the claw that I'd be afraid of them coming totally unhooked with a bad move...

 

[dave74]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

Have you told us your scale length, tuning, and string specific sizes/brand/model yet? It's real important to figuring out what is the problem.

 

[nexion218]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

OK, spent some more time with it. I've checked several of my FR guitars now. Even if I fully pull the bridge backwards, risking the strings breaking and decking out the Floyd against the body, NONE of the springs become uncoupled from the claw. No matter if its 2 or 3, parallel or \I/, they just stay put, as they should be. Uncoupling, aside from OPs rattle issue, would also generate a grounding issue, if I understand right, so that is a totally non proper functioning there. Don't want to create conspiration theories, but I'm starting to suspect that those trem springs are not the original ones. In fact they are longer than they should be and the shop tried to solve the issue by putting those extra springs behind the claw. Either way, get a pair of shorter tremolo springs and remove those smaller ones from behing the claw.

 

[nexion218]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

OK, last one really, cause I wanna play guitar till my picks melt...

Straight from the horse's mouth on the springs:

https://vegatrem.com/the-importance-of-the-springs/

And gere is the ofiicial installation video. Get yer strings off, throw out those darned springs from behind the claw, and reassemle the thing step by step according to the video (note that they install the springs in a parallel way and when they're installed, they are visibly under tension, unlike yours!). I'm 99% positive that if it doesn't work that way, your springs were swapped.

 

[BadAspen]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

I actually took the extra springs off the screws last night, and the problem still persisted. The thing is assembled properly. And you were right about the springs being swapped. I did that first thing when I noticed the problem. Those springs are about a quarter an inch shorter than the ones that came back with the guitar, which were standard MIM strat length. I currently put on longer springs which are a quarter inch longer than standard, and the problem persists.

 

[nexion218]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

Not sure if I understand right: it came back with shorter springs, you swapped in longer springs and neither of them worked? Man, this is not rocket science. The springs only work when under tension. Those springs are obviosly NOT under tension. I bet you can take them out with exerting minimal force. That is not good. Try it with one spring and screw the claw deeper to counter string tension. Or a shorter or more rigid spring. If you don't have shorter or stronger springs at home, then pack up your guitar, go back to the shop and tell them to fix it on the spot and free of charge, because it was working when you took it there and now it isn't. And it is quite visibly NOT assembled properly.

 

[BadAspen]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

The only difference to the bridge when I got it back was that it had had the claw tightened way down.

The shorter strings in the first video have the most tension of any of the springs I have and were an attempt to fix the issue, they did not work. I don’t think that there are more rigid springs on the market.

Here is also a video of me using extra long springs to no avail.

If you want me to, I can also record and upload a video of five springs not fixing the problem.

5 strong springs or 1 weak spring will both have the same outcome.

 

[nexion218]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

What happens if after to fit my guitar with the VT1 system doesn’t work well?

Contact us through support@vegatrem.com and we will give you the solution to any problem you may have. If you are finally not satisfied, send us your VT1 and we will refund the money.

https://vegatrem.com/quality/

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

What strings are on it now? There's no way a guitar tech would be dumb enough to do that to a guitar. If he put lighter gauge strings on there it would have the same effect as "cranking the claw down".

Anyways, your issue here is not that you don't have enough spring tension, you don't have enough tension per spring. Get the highest tension spring you have and put it on there completely diagonally. If one spring at a ~30° angle can't balance your entire set of strings without going slack on a pull up, nothing will.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

The springs shouldn't be causing this. It worked fine before. The tech tightened the claw. The owner backed off the claw. That should have worked fine, but for some reason, the claw started dislodging on pull ups.

As to why this happened, we'll never know. Maybe the screws and the claw were somewhat corroded together before.

The problem is that Strat vibratos were not designed to do this maneuver. Even with the stock amount of pull up, this issue exists when you pull way up. Add more range with a fancy aftermarket vibrato, and it gets exacerbated.

But as I mentioned before, ghetto option number one, simply wedge something between the claw and the front wall of the vibrato cavity. Problem solved. I myself would probably just cut a piece of wood to the right size, and even match the angle of the claw. I'd also fold the claw hooks over the spring loops.

Ghetto option number two, hot glue or Loc-Tite to glue the claw to the screws. Holds when needed, but reverses if necessary.

Or non-ghetto option number 1, just install a Schaller Sure Claw, which is a great improvement anyhow.

Personally, I think the best option is to ignore it, and turn up the amp. But the OP is obviously against that idea.

 

[BadAspen]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

I measured the diameter of the strings and it appears that the strings on the guitar are 10-46, not 11-48. This is the source of the problem and putting on 11-48 strings fixed it.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Trem Claw won't stay put when pulling up on whammy?

I measured the diameter of the strings and it appears that the strings on the guitar are 10-46, not 11-48. This is the source of the problem and putting on 11-48 strings fixed it.

Well, imagine that.

If your bridge is no longer level, you need higher tension strings.

To get back to something in my second post, did your tech install the same strings, or at least the same string set, that you had on it when you dropped it off?

To Demanic: ^ Exactly. Well, not "enough" tension, rather. The claw is way out....which leads me to believe that the so-called tech perhaps installed lower tension strings, causing the problem of the bridge plate leaning backwards.