Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

[J Moose]

4/17/10 ~ BUMP from the dead... new info on the bottom. Problem not solved yet...



So i've got a '93 Hamer with a floating Schaller floyd that I bought new and its currently setup with .10s as it has been for most of its life. At various points in time I've had the trem blocked, set for down only... hipshot tremsetter installed, which sucked... but right now its floating and I need to go through the plank again for some upcoming gigs.

Here's my question, think its a multipart... if its even a question. hehe

The trem on this guitar has always felt "stiffer" then a lot of other locking trem guitars I've played, like kramers w/ FRO's and specifically original Edge trems, which are so loose it'll do the bar flutter thing.

I resurrected the Hamer a year or two back and it had 4 springs installed, 2 on the outsides, nothing in the center. To make the bar easier to move I attempted to use 3-springs, straight up and at concert pitch (standard E) I couldn't get the plate to sit flat, even with the claw cranked FULLY in.

So, I went back to the 4-springs and tuned to pitch, the bridge plate sits flat with room to spare on the claw. But, the downside is that the bar is much stiffer then I'd like it to be. I really have to muscle into the thing for divebombs & pulls which doesn't seem right.

Now, what can I do to loosen up the trem and make it easier to engage?

Try some different springs? Different angles on the springs? Is some of this because I'm using .10s? I've thought about putting .9s on there to have a proper "shred" guitar... and everything else has .10s or thicker so that's an option, but I'd sort of like to stick with .10s.

Help!

 

[beandip]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

First I'd try angling the outer two springs. Many folks say that it doesn't effect the tension, but it logically makes sense to me. I spring, when stretched further will have more recoil. Could work.

If that doesn't work, maybe try Ex Light Top/Light Bottom strings. You get the feel of tens on the bass strings, but nines on the treble. Might just be what you need.

But if Zerb comes in here and says something completely different than what I posted, listen to him. He could probably set up a Floyd better than Floyd himself.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

So... you're saying that angling the springs & making them tighter would make for less tension on the trem? Or more?!? Not really following you there but I'm a chucklehead.

FWIW - My PRS has four springs installed on the trem, which is a 6-point non floating bridge and it feels awesome. This Hamer... I gotta get 2-3 fingers on the bar and a full-step dive (E to D) is doable but anymore then that and I really need to put my forearm into it and push from the shoulder.

How do I get the 2-spring superlight madness?!?

At what point do strings come into play, and what is their role in overall bar tension???

Right now this thing feels like a Figsby.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

Yeah, you need tighter springs. It sounds backwards but that's what it is. You want long stretched springs, stretched longer with the claw screws way in and maybe diagonal springs.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

If that doesn't work, maybe try Ex Light Top/Light Bottom strings. You get the feel of tens on the bass strings, but nines on the treble. Might just be what you need.

Actually going that route I'd want it the other way around... light bottom & heavy top. I have a real problem controlling vibrato with super light strings, gets real wide & wonky pretty easily.


Bump!

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

Set it with 3 springs like this /|\. 10's shouldn't be too heavy for 3 springs in that configuration. Also, according to Dan Erlewine's book, there are two types of springs used for trems. One is for Floyds, the other for Fender style bridges. The difference is one has approx 15% more tension than the other (I don't recall which is which). It's entirely possible that yours are the lighter type, or a mix, and you'd benefit from having the higher tension springs.

I'll also second the recommendation for light top/heavy bottoms. Although, if you shop for those, they'll be gauged .010-.052. While the principle is the same, the set I think you should try is gauged .009-.046, and usually called hybrid, or custom lite. Ernie Ball calls it Hybrid Slinky.

 

[Diego]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

I bought some heavy tension springs for my Ibanez for this reason.

I've got 2 (yes, two) springs set up in a V shape, for 10-46 strings tuned to E. Super smooth trem action. I think they're a bit shorter. So go get some new springs and you'll be set!

PD: I just checked XSSIVE's post below mine, and indeed the springs in my Ibanez have the green/gold tint he describes. Those are the ones you want!

 

[XSSIVE]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

there are different springs out there with different tensions and will require different amounts of springs depending on gauge. in general (this can differ from guitar to guitar or even spring to spring since nothing is ever perfectly the same) the black springs on modern fenders are the loosest but you'd need 5 in most cases to get a floyd to float. with typical silver vintage style strat springs you'll need 4 to get a floyd to float (sometimes 3 with the claw all the way, or nearly all the way down depending on the springs and the cavity route dimensions). the real floyd springs are the stiffest and have a slight greenish/gold hue to them, with these you can float a floyd with 10s with 3 no problem. you can also try mixing and matching springs to find what works best for you in terms of tension feel and balance.

as for position, i always stick with the classic /|\ and it works for me on floaters or dive only.

yet another reason i love my dive only floyds hahaha.

-Mike

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

There are a 2 ways to "solve" this, though it´s priimarily a result of the modified baseplate geometry, a Schaller will always feel "stiffer "than an OFR or Edge all other factors being the same, simply because the arm is mounted farther away from the knife edge. This changes the way the bar travels in use as well as the amout of maximum travel before the bar bottoms out on the top.

Most common as well as cheapest would be buying a set of stiffer springs (another nice post by Mike btw) or playing with the angling of 3 springs to see if you can get enough tension.

The other solution is extending the trem rout and buying / cutting a larger backplate so as to allow for more tension to be applied to the 3 springs.

Or you could modify the position of the bar itself on the baseplate, essentially "Dowel and redrill", just in a zinc alloy and not wood.... that would take cool tools and good knowledge of machining parts, though.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

Set it with 3 springs like this /|\. 10's shouldn't be too heavy for 3 springs in that configuration. Also, according to Dan Erlewine's book, there are two types of springs used for trems. One is for Floyds, the other for Fender style bridges. The difference is one has approx 15% more tension than the other (I don't recall which is which). It's entirely possible that yours are the lighter type, or a mix, and you'd benefit from having the higher tension springs.

I'll also second the recommendation for light top/heavy bottoms. Although, if you shop for those, they'll be gauged .010-.052. While the principle is the same, the set I think you should try is gauged .009-.046, and usually called hybrid, or custom lite. Ernie Ball calls it Hybrid Slinky.

+1 I've got a Strat with this spring configuration with standard tail to the body and strung with 009-042. Good action and she always comes back in tune.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

there are different springs out there with different tensions and will require different amounts of springs depending on gauge.

Interesting bit on the differences in springs and their tensions!

I sort of figured that might be the case... and the Hamer actually has 2 visibly different types of springs installed. Hmmmm...

After I plucked it from the dead a few years back, took it apart to clean every nook & entirely disassembled the floyd for cleaning. After putting it back together the action was really messed up because I didn't realize that the string blocks have a radius! haha

So I took it, and another guitar to a tech for final setup and electronics work. I believe hes the guy who put in those springs... and both guitars came back with "issues". Hmmmm....


Looking through the Stew Mac catalog I only see a generic "tremolo spring" and not different types.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Guitar,_tremolo/Tremolo_Tension_Spring.html

Where can I source those other 'floyd' springs from?

So here's another question...

If the strings have "X" amount of tension thats being exerted on the block, pulling it forward... and the springs are counteracting that tension by pulling the bridge back...

What would the actual difference be between 3 springs, 4 springs & 2 springs?

Wouldn't they all be exerting an equal amount of "back" tension tuned to pitch? And therefore make little difference in the feel of the bar?

I would think so but possibly not.

Zerb - I'm not about to redrill the plate & move the arm!!! Wouldn't it be easier to swap the bridge out entirely? hehe

But yeah, I know this Schaller has always been stiffer then a FRO... at one point I had a Warmoth mutt with an 80s FRO... but at the moment this Hamer is MUCH stiffer then it should be and has been in the past.

Thanks,

 

[Stratman]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

yes

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

...
What would the actual difference be between 3 springs, 4 springs & 2 springs?

Wouldn't they all be exerting an equal amount of "back" tension tuned to pitch? And therefore make little difference in the feel of the bar?

Assuming identical strings, a 4th spring vs a 3 spring setup would make the tension increase 33.3% faster when diving, making the trem feel "a third stiffer" so to speak.

On up pulls spring tension or number has no relevance.

Zerb - I'm not about to redrill the plate & move the arm!!! Wouldn't it be easier to swap the bridge out entirely? hehe

If the saddles are more to the front edge of the travel range, you could try swapping over to an OFR baseplate and locking bolts (the rest is identical anyways). If the saddles are pretty far back already, the chances are good the guitar won´t intonate properly with an OFR plate. If it´s a recessed trem, you may run into clearance issues with the bolts as well...

 

[J Moose]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

I dropped by the music shop this evening & grabbed a set of tremolo springs... 3 regular old springs from Allparts. I asked the guys about those 'floyd springs' and they had never heard of such a thing.

So at some point in the next few days if I can get my bench cleared off I'll give it a go; remove the 4-springs and go to 3. Before I spend a day tuning & retuning the floating floyd... whats the difference in tension/feel between the angle & straight pull?

/ | \

vs.

| | |

My strats typically go straight and that's always been fine... 6-point or 2-point trems setup for dive only.

Thanks again!

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

I would describe the /|\ config as feeling halfway between ||| and || ||

Does that make sense?

 

[J Moose]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

Sorta.

So if 4 springs is tightest... I can expect the | | | setup to be the loosest feeling?

 

[J Moose]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

Ahhright... from the depths.

I did get some new "matched" springs last year to replace the random set that was installed. Try as I might, I couldn't source the greenish/gold "Floyd" springs for anything and ended up with I guess Allparts silver or whatever, just generic springs.

With three installed and 10-46 strings I simply cannot get the trem to float in a position that's parallel to the body with less tension.

Doesn't matter if its | | | or / | \

Though I have better luck with the former & it was nowhere near parallel with the angles. I can't get it flat and it still requires a whole lot of muscle to move the arm so its a loose-loose at this point. Might as well go back to 4-springs & at least get the plate to sit right.

What am I missing?

If I dropped a set of 9-42 on here would that solve everything?

This is what it looks like when tuned to standard pitch. As you can see, there isn't much room to pull the claw in, its already fairly cranked.

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Trem spring tensions vs. angle vs. string guages

It seems to me like you'd need shorter springs (that would pull the tail end of the bridge down more to be parallel with the body), but unfortunately, I don't have the feintest idea where you'd actually get them.