Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

[marshallmike]

Hi; new guy here and I thought I'd give you all a little mind-nebder.

I've attached a diagram I've been working on for a couple of hours which mixes a Jimmy Page Harness (with only two changes) I got from Torres Engineering with the Triple Shot. I've already mixed the TS's and the JP Harness on one guitar and it works fine, but it required foregoing the coil tap function on the volume Push/Pulls. I wanted to avoid having useless Push/Pulls on my other Les Paul, so I came up with the idea of using the volume P/P's to handle phasing functions of the slug coils. Nevermind "why" for now; at this point, I'm just interested in the "how" of it.

If you dive in to examine it, keep in mind I've adjusted the pickup wires color codes to accomodate for DiMarzio pups.

If I've got my thinking straight, this should allow the Triple Shots to handle the Series/Parallel/Coil Tap functions and the volume Push/Pulls to handle the phasing of each pickup relative to itself by reversing the slug coil. By intercepting the pup cable by attaching only the active coil wires to the TS circuit attachment, continuing the other two wires to the volume P/P phase switch and then using the remaining interrupted wires for the trip back to the TS circuit attachment, it actually makes for a pretty tidy installation, the drawing not withstanding.

What I'm most concerned about is the Master Series connection, and if I've still allowed for both pups to play nice together. I'm confident that the Master Phase will work as shown, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something.

I'm certain that some of the TS options will not work with the individual phase options available on the volume P/P phase switches, or vice-versa, but unless I've really missed something, I'm fairly certain I'm gaining more than I'm giving up and probably accounting for every available switching option possible.

Again, why I want to do this is for another thread. I'm really interested in the wiring gurus taking a quick look to see if I missed/crossed a circuit someplace.

Notes: I didn't show the actual TS switches because it isn't really necessary, nor did I include the common from the guitar bridge and the common from each pot to the next; I take those as a given. I've integrated the pic and linked the original jpeg to allow for greater detail here:

Hosted on Fotki

Any comments are appreciated.

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

welcome to the forum!

you only need two push-pulls to get jimmy page style wiring going. you only need one phase switch for one of the pickups, because when both pickups' phases are reversed, they are back in phase with eachother.

one of the things to note with phase switch is that if you reverse the phase of a split pickup, it'll cut the active coil and switch to the other one.

you also only need one series switch, since the two pickups can only be either in phase or in series with eachother and no other pickup.

i'd say just connect the pickups straight to the triple shots, then have their -/+/ground outputs going to the pots. hook one of the pickups to the phase switch(doesn't matter which) and both of them to a series switch.

 

[marshallmike]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

welcome to the forum!

you only need two push-pulls to get jimmy page style wiring going. you only need one phase switch for one of the pickups, because when both pickups' phases are reversed, they are back in phase with eachother.

i'd say just connect the pickups straight to the triple shots, then have their -/+/ground outputs going to the pots. hook one of the pickups to the phase switch(doesn't matter which) and both of them to a series switch.

First, thanks for the welcome! I appeciate it.

You're correct that with the Triple Shots I only "need" the Master Series and Master Phase switches, but I'm looking for additional functions I "want" (if you knew me, this would be no surprize!). As I indicated, I've got the wiring you suggest in use in another guitar (an LP copy I use for "experimenting"). On that guitar which already had the pre-wired Torres JP Harness installed and working before I got the Triple shots, I intercepted the PUP wires and connected them to the Triple Shots. I removed the factory 2 conductor wire from the TS, attched the B&W ends of the remaining PUP wire (which was already wired to the P/Ps) to the TS output connections. This allowed me to just clip the red and white wires for Coil Tap (that guitar has SD pups) at the volume P/P's on the JP Harness (a lot easier than it sounds). This let the TS function normally and left the remaining Master Series and Master Phase connections alone. It works perfectly, but got me thinking about those 2 now "useless" P/P's in the guitar on a really nice pre-wired harness. To be honest, it just irks the crap out of the "Tinkerer" in me! :laugh2:

The guitar I'm hooking all this into is a really nice LP Studio. The JP harness I got from Torres is already very nicely pre-wired and pricey, so I'd like to make use of everything that's there. What I omitted in the original post is that the harness comes so neatly made, in order to isolate the P/P's on the volume controls so that they can operate as switches making each individual pup OOP with itself, only 2 wires need to be clipped it. Easy peasy. In this pic, you can see how nicely put together it comes and why I'd want to make use of everything that's already there.

one of the things to note with phase switch is that if you reverse the phase of a split pickup, it'll cut the active coil and switch to the other one.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but on its face, I'd have to either assume you're misunderstanding what I'm doing or respectfully disagree with you. Reversing the phase of 1 coil of a double coil pickup (which is what I'm doing to the slug coils via the isolated Volume P/P's in the diagram) would make that particular pup OOP with itself, which gives a really odd, hollow sound I've used on other guitars, hence my disagreement. If what you're trying to say is that once the pickup is split to either the active or the slug (via the TS) alone, I agree that the phase of the 1 coil won't matter to that pup. If I've got the wiring right, however, the phase of the slug coil should matter very much to the other pickup once they're both connected either in Master Series or Parallel. In fact, the Master Phase should still have a profound effect in all modes as well.

you also only need one series switch, since the two pickups can only be either in phase or in series with each other and no other pickup.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, so I don't know if I agree or I don't. :dunno: While the diagram only shows one Master Series switch putting both pups in Parallel (standard operation) or in Series (much fatter sound) with each other, the TS switches allow each pup to be either in Series or Parallel with itself. In effect, then, the guitar has 3 Series switches, each doing a very different job and doing them very well, I must say.

If you're telling me that with certain positions of the Triple Shot, the P/P switches may not function as intended, I agree with you. I haven't got each possible scenario of that quite played out in my head yet, but I do think I'm gaining more than I'm giving up and that's really what I'm after.

I think the thing to keep in mind (about me, at least) is that with a lot of this kind of wiring, I always look at each coil of a humbucking pup (especially the 4 conductor deals) as a seperate pickup itself; I just see them as having been mounted next to each other in a tidy package. Not only does this make it easier for me to "see" any number of these functions more easily, but the "Tinkerer" in me just sees them begging to be made to do other stuff beyond their boring, pre-wired existence.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

you could use the other push-pulls to change caps on the pickups

such as
you have a wire on the middle lug of the PP to the left tone terminal ( the one the cap usually resides on )
to the top lug you put a .022 cap with the other end grounded
to the bottom lug you have a .047 cap withe the other end grounded
when using single coils switch to the 47 cap for a more bassy tone control

not a lot of difference but just a slightly different color

 

[marshallmike]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

you could use the other push-pulls to change caps on the pickups

such as
you have a wire on the middle lug of the PP to the left tone terminal ( the one the cap usually resides on )
to the top lug you put a .022 cap with the other end grounded
to the bottom lug you have a .047 cap withe the other end grounded
when using single coils switch to the 47 cap for a more bassy tone control

not a lot of difference but just a slightly different color

You know, I originally considered that, but as you indicate, the tone difference is a little too subtle for me. Besides, I really like having a pup OOP with itself occasionally. With high output pups (DiMarzio 36th Anniversary Neck & Super Distortion Bridge, in this case) it's a much more dramatic effect.

Given the number of guitars I've got, I may ultimately change my intended direction here (or in another instrument) and go the capacitor route you suggest, but for now, I'm just trying to see if I've got my circuits correct in this set up.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

You know, I originally considered that, but as you indicate, the tone difference is a little too subtle for me. Besides, I really like having a pup OOP with itself occasionally. With high output pups (DiMarzio 36th Anniversary Neck & Super Distortion Bridge, in this case) it's a much more dramatic effect.

Given the number of guitars I've got, I may ultimately change my intended direction here (or in another instrument) and go the capacitor route you suggest, but for now, I'm just trying to see if I've got my circuits correct in this set up.

thats the DP103 aint it

thats not exactly high output bout 7.7k or 3.8 split
just put one of those , albeit an old PAF pro version, in the bridge of my buddies strat
should make one heck of a neck tho

 

[marshallmike]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

thats the DP103 aint it

thats not exactly high output bout 7.7k or 3.8 split
just put one of those , albeit an old PAF pro version, in the bridge of my buddies strat
should make one heck of a neck tho

Exactly right.

Perhaps "High Output" is a bit of an over statement; "Vintage Output", however, really undersells it, though. Perhaps that should read "High Enough Output".

Paul Riario from Guitar World is a friend of mine and I get to hear his '59 RI with that 36th Anniversary pup in the neck gigged regularly. I have to tell ya, that thing puts out a bit more than the 7.7 number might lead you to believe, certainly more than enough to make the OOP thing work really well.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

I equated it with the Jazz in my RG

 

[marshallmike]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

I equated it with the Jazz in my RG

I haven't had that much "playing time" with it. I have a Jazz in the neck of my LP Gold Top copy, so I'll have to compare them once I finish putting the LP Studio back together. It would not surprize me to find out that they're somewhat similar, though. The Jazz has a bit more to it than I initially expected, so it would make sense.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

Ok, so you've got each pickup in/out of phase with itself as well as in/out of pahse with each other. Cool.

However, it looks to me like you're losing the TS's ability to split to either coil. Aside from that, I'm not seeing a problem (I'm also assuming you left out the connection from the DPDTs to the actual pot tabs/ground since they're a given).

 

[marshallmike]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

Ok, so you've got each pickup in/out of phase with itself as well as in/out of pahse with each other. Cool.

Yeah, it's a neat effect I've always liked.

However, it looks to me like you're losing the TS's ability to split to either coil.

I'm not sure why you're seeing that happen.

In the detail of the diagram I'm attaching here, I'm pretty sure that I'm just isolating the slug coil for phase switching. The green and white wires run from the pickup, continue to their corresponding phase switch and, if I understand the DPDT switch connections properly, regardless of the phase, the signal returns to the TS circuit via the remainder of the original red and black wires. If that's right, the TS switch should not lose any of its function regardless of phase, including splitting to either coil. Am I missing something?

Aside from that, I'm not seeing a problem (I'm also assuming you left out the connection from the DPDTs to the actual pot tabs/ground since they're a given).

Actually, you can see the ground connections better in this next diagram. The phase switches for the individual slug coils don't need to be grounded to the pots, since they're isolated to the slug coils and just reverse their current. As I indicated previously, this harness does come pre-wired for the standard JP connections and works fine in my other guitar with the coil tap function on the volume mounted P/P's jumped out (the Triple Shots handle that function). In the configuration I'm proposing here, I only need to clip leads that would connect to the coil taps to the Master Series and Master Phase P/P's; I haven't shown that in the diagram, though.

Sorry about the picture size. I know it makes it hard to read, but I can't seem to make them any larger and Fotki won't let me link to the originals.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

Yeah, it's a neat effect I've always liked.



I'm not sure why you're seeing that happen.

In the detail of the diagram I'm attaching here, I'm pretty sure that I'm just isolating the slug coil for phase switching. The green and white wires run from the pickup, continue to their corresponding phase switch and, if I understand the DPDT switch connections properly, regardless of the phase, the signal returns to the TS circuit via the remainder of the original red and black wires. If that's right, the TS switch should not lose any of its function regardless of phase, including splitting to either coil. Am I missing something?

Well, in this one it looks like the Black and Red are going straight to the TS and thus straight to the Output, while the Green and White are diverted to the Push/Pull. I do see you've clipped the Red and Black short and are using the extra cable to feed the Green and White back to where they'd normally go if the Phase inversion wasn't there, so I guess you wouldn't lose the option of splitting to either coil after all.

However, I thought Phase Inversion with itself required 3 wires?

You're using the two Slug coil wires. This would make the Green wire the South Finish instead of Start and the White wire the South Start instead of Finish?

Actually, you can see the ground connections better in this next diagram. The phase switches for the individual slug coils don't need to be grounded to the pots, since they're isolated to the slug coils and just reverse their current. As I indicated previously, this harness does come pre-wired for the standard JP connections and works fine in my other guitar with the coil tap function on the volume mounted P/P's jumped out (the Triple Shots handle that function). In the configuration I'm proposing here, I only need to clip leads that would connect to the coil taps to the Master Series and Master Phase P/P's; I haven't shown that in the diagram, though.

Sorry about the picture size. I know it makes it hard to read, but I can't seem to make them any larger and Fotki won't let me link to the originals.

Ah, I was thinking the Push/Pull should have a direct link to the Volume pot to redirect the signal straight to it, but that's a completely different wiring scheme I'm thinking of. My bad.

 

[marshallmike]

Re: Triple Shot / Jimmy Page Wiring Hybrid

Well, in this one it looks like the Black and Red are going straight to the TS and thus straight to the Output, while the Green and White are diverted to the Push/Pull. I do see you've clipped the Red and Black short and are using the extra cable to feed the Green and White back to where they'd normally go if the Phase inversion wasn't there, so I guess you wouldn't lose the option of splitting to either coil after all.

Yeah, it may have been a little tough to see the actual intercept/diversion routing in the original pic; that expanded detail makes it a bit easier to follow. If there were a hard connection from the P/P to the volume pot, you'd be correct and it would kill the slpit function in the TS. As it is, though, I'm thinking its fine, right? :scratchch

However, I thought Phase Inversion with itself required 3 wires?

I'm pretty sure it's just the two. By isolating the slug coils, it should work just like the single coil phase reversal in this diagram.

You're using the two Slug coil wires. This would make the Green wire the South Finish instead of Start and the White wire the South Start instead of Finish?

When the switch is pulled up (phase reversed), yes.

With the DiMarzio's, the scheme is:
Red = North Start
Black = North Finish
White = South Finish
Green = South Start

On the trip back to the Triple Shot from the phase switch then (with the switch down), the red wire remnant carries the current from the white wire and the black remnant carries the current from the green wire. That's the only thing that should be "switched" once the pot is pulled up.

Ah, I was thinking the Push/Pull should have a direct link to the Volume pot to redirect the signal straight to it, but that's a completely different wiring scheme I'm thinking of. My bad.

No harm done, man. I appreciate the input, honestly. Thanks for taking some time with it. :bigthumb: