Trying to get good tone...

[Dills]

I have recently installed a Duncan Custom SH5 in the bridge of my Santana se and I love the sound of it when I use it to practice with at home, nice and full and chunky with edge. But when I use it on stage Im finding it too be slightly to trebly/harsh and the mic im using seems to pickup all the grainyness and hi end and send it through the PA, Is it my amp or is the pickup just voiced this way. I am using a Vox Pathfinder 15R miked up thru a PA and have the treble around 4 and the bass around 7. Could it be how its mixed at the desk, should the trebles be off at the desk? How do you guys mix your guitars at the desk if you have this problem? I have also experimented with different mike placements but Im not totally sure what position your mike should be. Im currently using the mike at off centre more towards the rim about 2 inches back from the cone?

 

[some_dude]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

Turn the mic so that the diaphram is parallel to the speaker cone.

You can fine tune your mic placement by listening on headphones while someone plays your guitar.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

If it sounds great through the amp, I'd do what Screaming Daisy said and play with the mic placement.

If it's trebly through the amp, consider a different pickup like a Custom 5 or CC.
Also, SS amps tend to be a little shrill with high output pickups, so consider using a tube amp live?

 

[Dills]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

whats the diaphram?

 

[some_dude]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

whats the diaphram?

The part that reacts to the change in sound pressure off the speaker.

You want the tip of the mic to be parallel to the speaker cone, and the body of the mic to be perpendicular, that way the air the speaker moves hits the mic at the same angle it leaves the speaker at and gives the most balanced frequency responce.

 

[Guitarist]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

If Gearjoneser is correct in saying that that amp is a solid-state amplifier, I would definetely not worry too much about the pickup as much as the amp. S/S amps definetely start to shrill up at giggable levels and lose a lot of that thickness and tonal quality. I'd look into a tube amplifier, as he said, also, to achieve what you are looking for.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

On the subject of mike placement, the exact theories are debateable as far as what works best in a given situation;However mike placement is crucial, a good sound guy, or recording guy will adjust mike placement way before he ever touches EQ. Get your sound guy to help, and listen to your guitar out front (the place the audience is) while someone plays it and the sound guy adjusts it. Headphones bring into it their own characteristics, although useful listening out front will tell you more bout what's going on than anything else.
I always miked with the mike axis dead on but with the mike placed half way between the voice coil and the surround (a bit closer to the surround), and around 4 inches in front of the grille cloth with a shure SM57. Another of the same directly in front of the voice coil, but turned about 40 degrees off axis, and about 2.5 inches from the grille cloth. One mike was rhythm and one was lead. A lot you can do with proper mike placement. S.S. amps unless very carefully designed do tend to shrill up a bit, it a bit of a general blanket statement, but many do do this. Even a great amp though with bad mike technique will sound like crap though.

 

[Forbes]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

If Gearjoneser is correct in saying that that amp is a solid-state amplifier, I would definetely not worry too much about the pickup as much as the amp. S/S amps definetely start to shrill up at giggable levels and lose a lot of that thickness and tonal quality. I'd look into a tube amplifier, as he said, also, to achieve what you are looking for.

Definately i have this same problem myself when turning my S/S amp up loud.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

I never noticed it was a ss amp :kabong:


BUT, if he's micing the amp, there shouldn't be a need to crank it to the point where it starts to overload and breakup. Unless it's also being used as a monitor......

 

[midnite_man]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

The part that reacts to the change in sound pressure off the speaker.

You want the tip of the mic to be parallel to the speaker cone, and the body of the mic to be perpendicular.

Dose this mean that the mic will be at an approx. angle of 45 degrees to the face of the cabinet, and parallel to the bottom of the amp?
This is a great thread guys. I'm trying to acquire some recording gear to save some guitar tracks mic'd off a tube amp, so your info here is in the same ballpark as the application I'm after.
Thanks,
Bob

 

[some_dude]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

Dose this mean that the mic will be at an approx. angle of 45 degrees to the face of the cabinet, and parallel to the bottom of the amp?

Basically. Then it comes down to taste. Kent S. for instance prefers to angle his at 0deg (parallel to the cab) with a second mic over the dust cover at 40deg. I try to avoid putting anything in front of the dust cover because that's right in the speaker beam. Personal taste.

But hey, next time I mic a speaker, I'm going to give Kent's method a shot and see if I like it, because I don't thing I've ever mic'ed that spot at a 40deg angle before.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

Basically. Then it comes down to taste. Kent S. for instance prefers to angle his at 0deg (parallel to the cab) with a second mic over the dust cover at 40deg. I try to avoid putting anything in front of the dust cover because that's right in the speaker beam. Personal taste.

But hey, next time I mic a speaker, I'm going to give Kent's method a shot and see if I like it, because I don't thing I've ever mic'ed that spot at a 40deg angle before.

Well, before you put to much faith in the method per se' ...this is something that the sound guy started futzing with, and when all was said and done it turned out that by large those positions sounded best with the amp I was using (which was a Fender Harvard Reverb II Solid state single channel, hey it was compact and very *brown*), all mids when overdriven, I used to use a compressor with the level control turned *down* for a clean channel with a bit of compression to give the sound some snap. The sound guy used to also mix the two mikes to make the clean sound a bit better (phase cancellation between the two mikes).
I can't remember which mike was used for what though,( I think the one in line with the voice coil {may have been more then 40 degrees} was for rhythm ... basically the off axis reduces the high mid beaming effect that the voice coil (dust cap) has, and the closeness increases the SM57s proximity effect (low thumpy boost the closer it is to the source) ... Also there are all kinda neat things that happen to the mids that vary with the closeness of the mike and the on versus off axis placement . The SM57s are classic, can't go wrong mikes that everyone should have (IMHO). Plus they are indestructable ...

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

But hey, next time I mic a speaker, I'm going to give Kent's method a shot and see if I like it, because I don't thing I've ever mic'ed that spot at a 40deg angle before.

The two mikes are the ticket there I think, ... You know what would really be great (here I go, to complicate things) if you had a rocker type pedal and *you* could blend back and forth between the two mikes ... now there's an idea!
Also, I don't know how useful what I'm about to say is live, because I never tried it, but for recording purposes try putting a mike in the back of a combo amp ... and mixing between the two ... remember everything at the back of that speaker is 180 degrees out of phase with the front of the driver.
Some really cool distortion, and stereo clean sounds.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

The two mikes are the ticket there I think, ... You know what would really be great (here I go, to complicate things) if you had a rocker type pedal and *you* could blend back and forth between the two mikes ... now there's an idea!

It would be cool right up until the point where the sound guy comes out of his box and on stage just to beat your ass. :blackeye:



Honestly though, it probably would be cool, but I don't thing the sound guy would be too thrilled.

The two mikes are the ticket there I think,

I did some reading up one the recording of Nirvana's Nevermind and In Utero albums. Cobain's main complaint was that Nevermind was too slick sounding. They used four mics in the studio and the producer would choose which mic sounded best and use that one.

For In Utero the producer had tons of mics placed all over the room, and would mix and blend them, which gave a much more in-your-face and raw sound, probably because of the better frequency blend. In Utero also has alot less compression on it, which gives it a much more live feeling.

I don't know if you listen to much Nirvana, but I like comparing those two albums because it's the same band, but the different production methods give a vastly different feel to the band. Many friends of mine who've only listened to Nevermind insist Nirvana is a rock band, until I put in In Utero, which is unmistakably (inmistakably?) a punk album.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Trying to get good tone...

It would be cool right up until the point where the sound guy comes out of his box and on stage just to beat your ass. :blackeye:



Honestly though, it probably would be cool, but I don't thing the sound guy would be too thrilled.

I was always more of a threat to the sound guy ... :evil:
Well you set up levels for both mikes, and the pedal unit would have to keep a unity gain, more like a true pan pot (you know at center the voltage is halved on both channels (mikes) to keep there level the same.

Nirvana , I don't listen to much ... err ...at all really, not my cup of tea, but I definitely know what you are talking about here. Miking and use of acoustics is becoming a lost art except for those that were brought up around it.
But the high paid studio guys sure know it, and do it...
Just like a good sound guy,before he evens thinks about eq, he'll make sure his drivers are aligned, stacked, and splayed properly,and monitors placed porperly along with mike placement,and the system rung out to get the best balance it can, and then only will he reach for the crossover,eq and phase delays for the final ringing out.