Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

toneseekr

New member
ok i have a Vox AC4TV combo amp. (4 watts max) and it came with a 16 ohm speaker. i changed the speaker to a 15 watt 8 ohm speaker and sounds amazing. considering that the vox has one 12ax7 tube and one el34 tube, would this mess up the amp? i really like how the 8 ohm speaker sounds, it is a biiig improvement. what do you guys think?
thanks in advance.
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

if your power supply expects a 16ohm load then give it one. the power supply is still delivering a 16ohm load which is 2x your speaker is expecting. the overall result is going to be a reduced speaker life and eventually damage to your amps ac power supply.
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

Twice the power to the speaker? Yeah that's gona sound awesome until the speaker explodes.

How comfortable are you with exploding speakers?
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

if your power supply expects a 16ohm load then give it one. the power supply is still delivering a 16ohm load which is 2x your speaker is expecting. the overall result is going to be a reduced speaker life and eventually damage to your amps ac power supply.

(sigh)

Power is measured in watts. Resistance/impedance is measured in ohms.

The output transformer (not power supply!) is not "delivering a 16 ohm load", but it is definitely expecting a 16 ohm load.

If this were a transistor amp, the amp would try to deliver twice the power since it now has half the impedance across it, but tube amps don't behave that way. They won't try to fill the void by delivering double the power. Their power output is dictated by the power amp circuitry and the type of power tubes themselves, not by the speaker load.

Instead, what you've done is changed the frequency response of the power amp by giving it a different impedance to play with. Speaker impedance is actually variable depending on the frequency of the sound that hits it, but it is tied into the overall impedance of the speaker. By reducing this impedance, you've changed the response of the amp.

The consequence of this is that the power amp is now operating outside the range its circuit was designed for, which means the tube(s) may wear out faster. And of course the amp will sound different. That being said, a change from 16 ohms to 8 ohms isn't a major concern on the whole.

Now, if you had INCREASED the load, you'd be in a lot more trouble. A bigger-than-expected load can do damage to the output transformer (which is not a cheap component).

I am not a big expert on tube amps, so I may have a few details wrong, but I'm pretty sure you're ok.
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

That being said, a change from 16 ohms to 8 ohms isn't a major concern on the whole.

Now, if you had INCREASED the load, you'd be in a lot more trouble. A bigger-than-expected load can do damage to the output transformer (which is not a cheap component).

I am not a big expert on tube amps, so I may have a few details wrong, but I'm pretty sure you're ok.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, as I'm not sure whether you're right or wrong.

This is DEAD WRONG. With tube amps, impedance mismatches are never a good idea, but if you have to, you want the amp to see a load larger than the output. IE, running a 4 ohm amp into an 8 ohm cabinet is okay. Supposedly, doing this will actually drop your volume a bit (but don't use it to tame a loud amp, it will wear out the amp faster than normal) The wider the mismatch, the worse for the amp it is. You NEVER want to run a 16 ohm amp into anything less than what it's rated for.
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

I agree... I would be more worried about damage to the amp than to the speaker when connecting an 8-ohm speaker to a 16-ohm output.
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, as I'm not sure whether you're right or wrong.

This is DEAD WRONG. With tube amps, impedance mismatches are never a good idea, but if you have to, you want the amp to see a load larger than the output. IE, running a 4 ohm amp into an 8 ohm cabinet is okay. Supposedly, doing this will actually drop your volume a bit (but don't use it to tame a loud amp, it will wear out the amp faster than normal) The wider the mismatch, the worse for the amp it is. You NEVER want to run a 16 ohm amp into anything less than what it's rated for.

I have to disagree.

Matching impedance is always the safest, most reliable way to run a tube amp, but if you MUST mismatch it's always safer to mismatch low, not high. Like I said, current through a tube power amp is limited by the tubes themselves, therefore lowering the impedance won't cause them to draw more current than they're capable of handling. It will increase wear on the tubes, but it won't destroy them - at least not suddenly.

On the other hand, if you raise the impedance of the speaker too high, you run the risk of damaging the OT. This is because electricity always tries to find the easiest path to ground. If the impedance of the speaker is too high, the electrons will start taking the easier route of bridging the transformer, which turns it into an inductor. When this inductor discharges, bam - fried OT, at minimum.

The worst possible thing you can do to a tube amp is run it with no speaker hooked up (i.e. infinite impedance). This is the quickest way to ruin your OT and possibly other components. Short circuiting your amp (i.e. zero impedance) is far easier to deal with than this scenario (but still not a good idea, because it will ruin your tubes pretty quickly).

Bottom line: mismatching low will wear out your tubes a lot faster, but mismatching high will destroy your OT. Tubes are far easier and cheaper to replace than a transformer.

I think that a lot of misconceptions about this topic come from the fact that tube and solid state amps have pretty much opposite behaviour when the speaker load changes. Transistors aren't self-limiting like tubes are, so if the impedance is too low they will fry.
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

This is correct.


I have to disagree.

Matching impedance is always the safest, most reliable way to run a tube amp, but if you MUST mismatch it's always safer to mismatch low, not high. Like I said, current through a tube power amp is limited by the tubes themselves, therefore lowering the impedance won't cause them to draw more current than they're capable of handling. It will increase wear on the tubes, but it won't destroy them - at least not suddenly.

On the other hand, if you raise the impedance of the speaker too high, you run the risk of damaging the OT. This is because electricity always tries to find the easiest path to ground. If the impedance of the speaker is too high, the electrons will start taking the easier route of bridging the transformer, which turns it into an inductor. When this inductor discharges, bam - fried OT, at minimum.

The worst possible thing you can do to a tube amp is run it with no speaker hooked up (i.e. infinite impedance). This is the quickest way to ruin your OT and possibly other components. Short circuiting your amp (i.e. zero impedance) is far easier to deal with than this scenario (but still not a good idea, because it will ruin your tubes pretty quickly).

Bottom line: mismatching low will wear out your tubes a lot faster, but mismatching high will destroy your OT. Tubes are far easier and cheaper to replace than a transformer.

I think that a lot of misconceptions about this topic come from the fact that tube and solid state amps have pretty much opposite behaviour when the speaker load changes. Transistors aren't self-limiting like tubes are, so if the impedance is too low they will fry.
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

thanks guys i think im going to have to get a 8 ohm.... is there no way of making the amp 8 ohms?
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

Without changing the tranformer in that amp probably not but you can get a few impedance matching boxes that take one load and change it (weber definately makes one). What speaker is it btw?
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

James Rock it was an old celestion speaker dont know what model it is.
GoldenVulture thanks

So i ended up putting a Celestion Greenback and sounds great.
Think ima try a Celestion Vintage 30 next
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

I have to disagree.

Matching impedance is always the safest, most reliable way to run a tube amp, but if you MUST mismatch it's always safer to mismatch low, not high. Like I said, current through a tube power amp is limited by the tubes themselves, therefore lowering the impedance won't cause them to draw more current than they're capable of handling. It will increase wear on the tubes, but it won't destroy them - at least not suddenly.

On the other hand, if you raise the impedance of the speaker too high, you run the risk of damaging the OT. This is because electricity always tries to find the easiest path to ground. If the impedance of the speaker is too high, the electrons will start taking the easier route of bridging the transformer, which turns it into an inductor. When this inductor discharges, bam - fried OT, at minimum.

The worst possible thing you can do to a tube amp is run it with no speaker hooked up (i.e. infinite impedance). This is the quickest way to ruin your OT and possibly other components. Short circuiting your amp (i.e. zero impedance) is far easier to deal with than this scenario (but still not a good idea, because it will ruin your tubes pretty quickly).

Bottom line: mismatching low will wear out your tubes a lot faster, but mismatching high will destroy your OT. Tubes are far easier and cheaper to replace than a transformer.

I think that a lot of misconceptions about this topic come from the fact that tube and solid state amps have pretty much opposite behaviour when the speaker load changes. Transistors aren't self-limiting like tubes are, so if the impedance is too low they will fry.

Matt... this might be a good topic for your next Duncan blog post.
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

I have to side with Agileguy on this one Matt.

Everything I've read (including the manuals to both my Orange heads and my Rectoverb, as well as the couple of tube amp repair books I own [which in no way make me an expert on the subject by the way]) state that, if you have to mismatch, plugging (for example) a 16ohm cab into the 8ohm output of the amp is safe, while the opposite wouldn't be. So, bigger impedance cab in smaller output of the amp would be ok. Have a look at the manual for your mesa, just to see...

Cheers!
 
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Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

I have to side with Agileguy on this one Matt.

Everything I've read (including the manuals to both my Orange heads and my Rectoverb, as well as the couple of tube amp repair books I own [which in no way make me an expert on the subject by the way]) state that, if you have to mismatch, plugging (for example) a 16ohm cab into the 8ohm output of the amp is safe, while the opposite wouldn't be. So, bigger impedance cab in smaller output of the amp would be ok. Have a look at the manual for your mesa, just to see...

Cheers!

Well, I think we're both right. Technically/electronically, I'm right. In practical, real world terms though, you're right. Here's why:

A 16 ohm load in an 8 ohm input isn't going to do much harm, especially in an amp with a big, rugged OT like a Mesa or an Orange. Meanwhile, a 4 ohm load into the same 8 ohm input will definitely put strain on your tubes. As such, I can see why the manufacturer would rather that you mismatch high than low. They know their OT can handle the stress of the slightly higher load. I'm not so sure that's the case with something like the OP's amp.

A good OT can handle an impedance mismatch in either direction by one degree (i.e. going from 4 to 8 or 8 to 16, but not 4 to 16). The real problem is when you start exceeding the tolerance of the OT, which is what turns it into an inductor/amp murderer. If, for example, you ran a 32 ohm load into that 8 ohm input (which would, admittedly, require a very bizarre speaker configuration) I would guess that the OT would not last long.

You will notice on the back of many amps (e.g. Marshall) it says you MUST always connect a speaker load before powering the amp up. This is because of the infinite load scenario I described.

FYI: the manual for the Mark V says that there may be "problems" or "reduced tube life" if you mismatch too low, which is pretty much exactly what I am saying.
 
Re: Tube Amp Problem (((((NEED HELP QUICK)))))

To be honest while everything said is technically true I don't see the current increase from going 8 ohm cab to 16 ohm cab being able to do physical damage to the output transformer. It should sound bad and be too quiet but the energy change involved by the 2x impedance can't make the difference between being stable and melting it down in my estimation.

Well it's not my amp so there :)
 
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