Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Why should be the bridge HB splitted? I mean is there a problem? I am asking because this is the first time I wire/modify a guitar by myself...

Right now the original Fender HH setup is like that (at least seems to me like that):

Pos. 1 Bridge HB
Pos. 2 Combination of innet split coils
Pos. 3 Both HB (parallel)
Pos. 4 Combination of outer split coils
Pos. 5 Neck HB

Is Pos.3 seems that there are the two HB in parallel working togheter. So I thought to make

Pos. 1 Bridge HB
Pos. 2 Bridge HB + Middle Noiseless SC (parallel)
Pos. 3 Middle Noiseless SC
Pos. 4 Middle Noiseless SC + Neck Noiseless SC (parallel)
Pos. 5 Neck Noiseless SC

Is that a problematic choise? What could be the cons (and pros) of this particular setup?

Thanks a lot for all the info

The traditional Stratty "quack" tone of Position 2 *may be* dulled/subdued if you use the the 2 extra coils of each pickup. I am *not* certain of that because i have never wired 2 pickups like what you are proposing, but it is a possibility. Maybe a forum member who has done what you are proposing, can reply and tell us.

Techically, the same risk of "dulled quack tone" also exists at Position 4 because you are proposing to use both coils of the neck pickup and the middle pickup, instead of combining just the two main coils of each one.

Why? Because the quack tones that are famous from Positions 2 and 4 come from the combination of just 2 coils, and you are proposing to use extra coils (which are *in series* with their respective partners, by the way - "series" thickens the tone), so the result may be different...

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

The traditional Stratty "quack" tone of Position 2 *may be* dulled/subdued if you use the the 2 extra coils of each pickup. I am *not* certain of that because i have never wired 2 pickups like what you are proposing, but it is a possibility. Maybe a forum member who has done what you are proposing, can reply and tell us.

Techically, the same risk of "dulled quack tone" also exists at Position 4 because you are proposing to use both coils of the neck pickup and the middle pickup, instead of combining just the two main coils of each one.

Why? Because the quack tones that are famous from Positions 2 and 4 come from the combination of just 2 coils, and you are proposing to use extra coils (which are *in series* with their respective partners, by the way - "series" thickens the tone), so the result may be different...

And here is a diagram to use if you wanted to achieve traditional "just 2 coils" in positions 2 and 4 with the 2 noiseless singecoils and 1 humbucker and superswitch like you have.

 

[maup]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

The traditional Stratty "quack" tone of Position 2 *may be* dulled/subdued if you use the the 2 extra coils of each pickup. I am *not* certain of that because i have never wired 2 pickups like what you are proposing, but it is a possibility. Maybe a forum member who has done what you are proposing, can reply and tell us.

Techically, the same risk of "dulled quack tone" also exists at Position 4 because you are proposing to use both coils of the neck pickup and the middle pickup, instead of combining just the two main coils of each one.

Why? Because the quack tones that are famous from Positions 2 and 4 come from the combination of just 2 coils, and you are proposing to use extra coils (which are *in series* with their respective partners, by the way - "series" thickens the tone), so the result may be different...

OK I understand your point, and thank you for that.

I guess I thought that being "noiseless single coils" I considered them in my mind as normal single coils to couple with each other, in fact they are stacked humbuckers...

I wonder if someone tried to couple noiseless single coils just like if they were normal single coils, without making split coils configurations.

 

[maup]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

And here is a diagram to use if you wanted to achieve traditional "just 2 coils" in positions 2 and 4 with the 2 noiseless singecoils and 1 humbucker and superswitch like you have.

Thank you very much for the diagram. I should study it in details because the switch positions seems in reverse order (I wrote like that too in my original post and someone said it is wrong, so I corrected my original post), also all the wire colors seems different from what I have and there are something in reverse polarity. For example the brigde red goes to ground when should go to the switch... I'll try to study that better...

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Thank you very much for the diagram. I should study it in details because the switch positions seems in reverse order (I wrote like that too in my original post and someone said it is wrong, so I corrected my original post), also all the wire colors seems different from what I have and there are something in reverse polarity. For example the brigde red goes to ground when should go do the switch... I'll try to studi that better...

The switch order (1-5) as written out on the right side of the Dimarzio diagram is not correct - neck by itself really is Position 5, not Position 1. However, where the wires are shown connected to the switch in the diagram is correct.

The color of the wires in the diagram are different because the diagram is based on all 3 pickups being Dimarzio brand. Whereas you have 2 dimarzio pickups and 1 fender pickup. So you will need to translate the colors shown in the diagram for the bridge humbucker (only) from Dimarzio wire colors to Fender wire colors. Attached below is a wire color conversion chart.

Finally, regarding the reverse polarity, after you wire it up and try out your guitar, you may find that when you have the switch set to Position 2 or Position 4 that the sound is out of phase.

1. If it happens in Position 2 only, then swap the Bridge Hot and Bridge Ground wires with each other.

2. If it happens in Position 4 only, then swap the Neck Hot and Neck Ground wires with each other.

3. If it happens in Position 2 and Position 4, then swap the Middle pickup Hot and Middle pickup Ground wires with each other

 

[maup]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

The switch order (1-5) as written out on the right side of the Dimarzio diagram is not correct - neck by itself really is Position 5, not Position 1. However, where the wires are shown connected to the switch in the diagram is correct.

The color of the wires in the diagram are different because the diagram is based on all 3 pickups being Dimarzio brand. Whereas you have 2 dimarzio pickups and 1 fender pickup. So you will need to translate the colors shown in the diagram for the bridge humbucker (only) from Dimarzio wire colors to Fender wire colors. Attached below is a wire color conversion chart.

Finally, regarding the reverse polarity, after you wire it up and try out your guitar, you may find that when you have the switch set to Position 2 or Position 4 that the sound is out of phase.

1. If it happens in Position 2 only, then swap the Bridge Hot and Bridge Ground wires with each other.

2. If it happens in Position 4 only, then swap the Neck Hot and Neck Ground wires with each other.

3. If it happens in Position 2 and Position 4, then swap the Middle pickup Hot and Middle pickup Ground wires with each other

Thank you very much for all the info! Great reference for the pickups wiring!


About that:

you may find that when you have the switch set to Position 2 or Position 4 that the sound is out of phase.

with "out of phase" you mean that it is not hum-cancelling: if is out of phase you hear the hum, right?

Thanks again for all.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Hello to all... well I removed my strat pickguard (surprisingly I never done before...) and I found out that it has a 5 way Fender Super Switch mg: it has a 24 poles and a really (for me) complicated wiring.
View attachment 99058

Technically there are 24 "lugs" on a super switch. 4 "Poles" with 5 "Throws" each. A "Pole" is the common which makes different connections when going through the switch positions. There are 5 positions, connections, or "Throws" for each pole. It's like having 4 separate switches built into one housing.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Thank you very much for all the info! Great reference for the pickups wiring!


About that:



with "out of phase" you mean that it is not hum-cancelling: if is out of phase you hear the hum, right?

Thanks again for all.

Out-of-phase is not hum canceling, but out-of-phase is much more than just that... it is a very thin, nasally sounding tone, and has a huge volume drop compared to the other positions on the pickup selector switch. So, if Positions 2 or 4 are out-of-phase, it will be a very obvious sound... much more obvious than just 60 cycle hum.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Technically there are 24 "lugs" on a super switch. 4 "Poles" with 5 "Throws" each. A "Pole" is the common which makes different connections when going through the switch positions. There are 5 positions, connections, or "Throws" for each pole. It's like having 4 separate switches built into one housing.

Guitar Doc, can you confirm or correct my earlier statement about what the OP needs to do to handle potential out-of-phase issues in Positions 2 or 4? My advice was based on swapping around hot and ground wires. Does swapping wires always provide relief to out-of-phase, or are there certain scenarios where out-of-phase cannot be resolved without having the middle pickup being RWRP to the neck and bridge? I am thinking if the middle pickup happens to have the same wind direction as the bridge or neck it is being conbo'ed with,
swapping wires would resolve out-of-phase but the combo would still be non-hum cancelling? So RWRP would be needed? Is flipping the magnet an alternate for having RWRP?

Thanks!

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

There is a possibility that the OP will get out of phase. Depends on the individual pups and how they are wired. If it is out of phase in position 2 then reversing the wires of the bridge or middle pup will correct that.

 

[maup]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Technically there are 24 "lugs" on a super switch. 4 "Poles" with 5 "Throws" each. A "Pole" is the common which makes different connections when going through the switch positions. There are 5 positions, connections, or "Throws" for each pole. It's like having 4 separate switches built into one housing.

Thank you for the proper terminology.

With "pole" in fact I meant "place where you connect a wire" Actually when I opened the pickguard I didn't even know that something like a "super switch" existed... I counted the "lugs" and I saw they were 24 and I googled "fender pickup switch 5 positions 24" and some sites came out, including a couple of on line sellers and some guides. Then I knew about the super switch and the fact that is like having 4 switches and how the connection works.

Now I have to figure out the best connections I can do, expecially for positions 2 and 4, I am still searching for info on if is better to split coils or to put all in parallel (meaning always in pos 2 and 4).

 

[maup]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Out-of-phase is not hum canceling, but out-of-phase is much more than just that... it is a very thin, nasally sounding tone, and has a huge volume drop compared to the other positions on the pickup selector switch. So, if Positions 2 or 4 are out-of-phase, it will be a very obvious sound... much more obvious than just 60 cycle hum.

OK thank you very much for that I understand what you mean, I was looking on youtube there are a few examples of that. Yet, I didn't know about that until you mentioned. I'm learning as I go... I have all the hardware on the table but still didn't make any connection or test since I'm enough sure in my mind about the proper way to connect all.

 

[maup]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

There is a possibility that the OP will get out of phase. Depends on the individual pups and how they are wired. If it is out of phase in position 2 then reversing the wires of the bridge or middle pup will correct that.

I am wondering now if is there a way to test the pickups before installing them, I mean, I put them on the table and "twist" the wires (without soldering) in the configuration that I think it is good, then maybe is there a chance to check if it is all working, out of phase, buzzing? For the hum I think I can hear it.... (BTW I don't have any oscillometer or tool like that, just a fender amp and a tester at most).

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

I am wondering now if is there a way to test the pickups before installing them, I mean, I put them on the table and "twist" the wires (without soldering) in the configuration that I think it is good, then maybe is there a chance to check if it is all working, out of phase, buzzing? For the hum I think I can hear it.... (BTW I don't have any oscillometer or tool like that, just a fender amp and a tester at most).

You should try and do the bench test described in this article to see if your middle pickup has reverse polarity(a.k.a. magnetic orientation) vs your neck and bridge pickups. The article explains why in a 3 pickup guitar, why the middle pickup needs to be Reverse Polarity compared to the other two pickups when combining it with either of the other pickups.



If the test shows that the middle pickup is not Reverse Polarity compared to the other two, the article says that *generally* this could be resolved by removing the magnet, flipping it over physically and then reinstalling the magnet , but i am not sure how feasible that is on a stacked "singlecoil", since the examples given are concerning traditional humbuckers.

Maybe another forum member can chime in and confirm or correct me?

The article does confirm my advice fron an earlier reply for resolving out-of-phase issues due to winding direction, i.e. it says that that is easily solved by swapping around hot lead and ground lead wires.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Also, i just recalled that i still had an email saved when a Dimarzio tech person answered some of my questions when i bought my own Area 58 pickup. Here is a section of that email:

"On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:47 PM, DiMarzio Tech

<tech@dimarzio.com> wrote:

Putting the 58 in parallel or series with one coil of the bridge pickup will not cancel hum. The Area 58 has two coils, and the bottom coil needs to be turned off to combine the top coil with one coil of the bridge pickup. It is not necessary to order a 58 with reverse polarity. The top coil is South up, which can be combined with the North coil of the bridge pickup (the coil furthest from the cable exit on most humbuckers)."

Note the last part where he states that the Area 58 pickup's main coil is magnetically oriented South up. That means you *most likely* have two Area 58 pickups where the main coil of both has the same magnetic orientation - South Up - but your bench test will confirm - cuz maybe by some miracle or good luck one of them happens to be Reverse Polarity (North up). Assuming you are not so lucky.... you will need to do either of the following to get two *split* Area 58s in-phase in Position 4:

A. flip the main coil in one of the two Area 58s
B. acquire one replacement Area 58 that is Reverse Polarity. (** if you bought these Area 58s new from a authorized Dimarzio dealer - contact Dimarzio and see if they would do a free exchange of one of the Area 58s for you)

I am now wondering if there is another potential alternative scheme that would work but need a forum member with more experience to chime in: alter the wiring scheme for Position 4 only, so that the two Area 58s are NOT split, like in the OP's original proposed diagram. So they are combined with each ine in humbucking mode. (But still split the middle and bridge in Position 2). The risk of dulled Stat quack returns to Position 4 by doing this alternate...

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

I am going to call Dimarzio myself this morning and ask them to verify the concern i raised about risk of dulled Strat/quack tone if combining the two Area 58s in humbucking mode. And will post back here. I feel responsible since i raised the issue, haha. Their tech line opens at 11am EST and currently it is 10:11 EST where I am located.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

I am going to call Dimarzio myself this morning and ask them to verify the concern i raised about risk of dulled Strat/quack tone if combining the two Area 58s in humbucking mode. And will post back here. I feel responsible since i raised the issue, haha. Their tech line opens at 11am EST and currently it is 10:11 EST where I am located.

Ok, i called and talked with a Dimarzio tech and got some good information.

1. Regarding Position 4, he said these Area pickups are designed to still sound Stratty/quacky when two Area pickups are combined with each one in humbucking mode, so there is no need to split each one to its main coil. He also said that they should be in-phase naturally without having to swap the hot wire and ground wire on one of them. So you can wire Position 4 like you had in your original diagram.

2. Regarding Position 2: he said *some* Dimarzio users feel that there is not enough quack/strat tone when combining the Area middle and Bridge pickup with each one in humbucking mode. And he confirmed that if you do decide to split the two, that you need to make the North coil of the bridge pickup be the one that is left active, because the main coil of the Area pickup is South up.

He also confirmed what was covered in the email i quoted above, that an uneven number of active coils produces 60 cycle hum, so you would not want to combine the full Area middle pickup with just one coil of the bridge, or the main coil of the Area middle with both coils of the Bridge humbucker, as examples.

So i apologize about the earlier "false alarm" about the risk of "dullness" in Position 4, but he did confirm there is a risk of it in Position 2 depending on your personal tastes
.. and now this thread gives you enough info on how to split the middle and bridge coils correctly if you decide to do it.

Please let us know how the wiring goes after you complete it and how you like the pickups!

 

[maup]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Ok, i called and talked with a Dimarzio tech and got some good information.

1. Regarding Position 4, he said these Area pickups are designed to still sound Stratty/quacky when two Area pickups are combined with each one in humbucking mode, so there is no need to split each one to its main coil. He also said that they should be in-phase naturally without having to swap the hot wire and ground wire on one of them. So you can wire Position 4 like you had in your original diagram.

2. Regarding Position 2: he said *some* Dimarzio users feel that there is not enough quack/strat tone when combining the Area middle and Bridge pickup with each one in humbucking mode. And he confirmed that if you do decide to split the two, that you need to make the North coil of the bridge pickup be the one that is left active, because the main coil of the Area pickup is South up.

He also confirmed what was covered in the email i quoted above, that an uneven number of active coils produces 60 cycle hum, so you would not want to combine the full Area middle pickup with just one coil of the bridge, or the main coil of the Area middle with both coils of the Bridge humbucker, as examples.

So i apologize about the earlier "false alarm" about the risk of "dullness" in Position 4, but he did confirm there is a risk of it in Position 2 depending on your personal tastes
.. and now this thread gives you enough info on how to split the middle and bridge coils correctly if you decide to do it.

Please let us know how the wiring goes after you complete it and how you like the pickups!

WOW mg: I have no words to express how much I thank you for that! Really thank you so very very much kingswebe :bowdown: I could never imagine to receive such a direct information on my questions!
(Also because I could not be able to call and express myself that technically clear in english!)
I owe you a beer :beerchug:

Point 1. Regarding Position 4: When I got informed and I decided to buy two Area 58 pickups, although I did not know some things that I know now, at that time I understood that they can be treated as common single coils, I did not read anything about splitting the inside coils when used in neck and middle togheter. In fact when I received them they are prewired with black and white already connected togheter and isolated with plastic cover, and red and green wires are free to solder.

Point 2. Regarding Position 2: Everything is clear now, I will study the situation and elaborate a solution, probably I am going with middle split + bridge hb split as you clearly explained.

When I will finish the changes I will let you know all the details, my impressions and also maybe I will record some sound samples. So this thread will be useful for others in similar situations.

Again thanks so very much for all!

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

WOW mg: I have no words to express how much I thank you for that! Really thank you so very very much kingswebe :bowdown: I could never imagine to receive such a direct information on my questions!
(Also because I could not be able to call and express myself that technically clear in english!)
I owe you a beer :beerchug:

Point 1. Regarding Position 4: When I got informed and I decided to buy two Area 58 pickups, although I did not know some things that I know now, at that time I understood that they can be treated as common single coils, I did not read anything about splitting the inside coils when used in neck and middle togheter. In fact when I received them they are prewired with black and white already connected togheter and isolated with plastic cover, and red and green wires are free to solder.

Point 2. Regarding Position 2: Everything is clear now, I will study the situation and elaborate a solution, probably I am going with middle split + bridge hb split as you clearly explained.

When I will finish the changes I will let you know all the details, my impressions and also maybe I will record some sound samples. So this thread will be useful for others in similar situations.

Again thanks so very much for all!

Great, thank you for your understanding and patience.

 

[maup]

Re: Turn Strat from HH to H +S (Noiseless) +S (Noiseless)

Hello all, I'm back here after some time to tell about the final result of my Strat modifications/upgrade.

Also I want to tank kingswebe, GuitarDoc, Benjy_26 and all other users who were so much kind to help me out with understanding and clearing many questions and doubts.

I took some time to find the final configuration after some "trials and errors", in fact I tried some different configurations with split coils, at first it didn't work properly, then with some modifications it worked but I really didn't like much the final sound. So in the end I went on realizing my first idea that was to connect all the pickups as they were common single coils to the 5 way switch, so with no splitting of humbuckers (or stacked single coils).

Now I am really very happy of my guitar, to me the sound is amazing, at least so much better than before. Also I didn't want to replicate an exact Strat tone, I wanted more a unique sounding guitar. In the end I am very satisfied and I will keep like that for long time.

If you don't mind I would like to post some pictures and details of the realization, also hoping to be of help for others maybe.

About the aesthetics, I wanted to give a "custom shop / pawn shop" kind of look, and also about that I liked it a lot in the end.

First the whole picture:



About the components I kept all the original parts, except:
- Pickguard (I got it from an online store and came with the "Allparts" stick in the rear).
- n.2 Di Marzio Area 58 Pickups (cream color).
- n.1 resistor + n.1 capacitor (I took at a local store for cents) for "Treble bleed" circuit, which I put together ready for soldering to the volume pot, as in the picture below:



I also added a more robust shielding on the pickguard and in the guitar cavities using a copper tape as shown below:



In the picture below there are all the components mounted in the pickguard. Actually it is not the final circuit, it is the split coil version which I didn't like much and that I changed (also there is no treble bleed mod).

The only modification that I had to do is to drill larger holes for the Di Marzio pickups screws which were too large.

Unfortunately I did not remember to take a picture with the final version of the wiring...



This is the final wiring diagram, please note that the bridge Fender Humbucker is polarity inverted because it was out of phase with the middle pickup.
(Sorry for the low resolution of the diagram. Actually I made it larger but the forum functions resize it while uploading. I also tried to add a PDF but it says that I added too much attachments for this post. If anyone wants the PDF please let me know I'll make another post with just it).




Last, I recorded some sound samples. It is not a professional thing (also I am not a pro guitarist), they are just quick audio recording took from the Fender Mustang amp USB connector directly to the computer, using built-in features. But you can hear the guitar sound, if you want to.

In the audio files you will hear the same notes repeated many times, each time changing switch position from position 5 (neck) to 1 (bridge).

https://youtu.be/RqLnXgkzWCQ Clean Arpeggio
https://youtu.be/6elD5eZBlxg Clean Strumming
https://youtu.be/MOd8iOcDxdw Overdrive 1
https://youtu.be/yTRpml_qA1U Overdrive 2
https://youtu.be/7kPDuFkVbDI Distortion

Again, thanks to all for the great help.