Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

OlinMusic

New member
YES YES YES, I know it's bad - spare me the obvious posts.

Any amp gurus know the effects if this happens for 5 - 10 mins? Anything horrible?

this happens every so often at gigs etc, when people are setting up they might inadvertently plug in the amp while it's in the on position with no speaker cable attached.

This definitely happens a lot at places like guitar center, where salespeople mnay not have wired all the rigs in a listening room correctly.

I want to know what damage might occur out of curiosity, and moreover, if I buy an amp at a place like GC, how bad it may have suffered prior to purchase.
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

I'd like to know this too. I jammed with my friends the other day and plugged my Bassman into a 1x15 cab...turned everything on as usual, and had no sound...tried a couple different amps before i noticed there was no speaker in the cabinet.

The amps all still work but what kinda damage did i do?

-X
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

A lot of this will depend on the quality of the transformers and the design of the amp.

On amps where you have a primary input and then an auxillary input, often the primary input will have a "shorting" jack on it (like what you use for input jacks). that will short out the output which is better than not having anything plugged in at all. That's why on those amps you *have* to plug into that one output first.

but, truth be told, if you've got good iron, you can probably get away with this now and then. I wouldn't make a habit of it though.

On amps that have seperate 4 8 and 16 ohm outputs, you have no "protection" as they just use normal "non-shorting" jacks.
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

And in addition to what Scott said, without that protection, the output transformer is at risk.
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

what is the actual cause of the problem? like why does it mess up the amp?
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

Just turning it on will probably not hurt it. Cranking it up a wangin' on a big power chord is not a good idea. Don't worry too much about small, unseen damage. If your OT blows, you'll know it.

The thing that kills me is all those clueless sellers on eBay (especially with those old tube PA amps that wackos like me seek out). "I don't know if this works since I don't have a speaker to test it. But I powered it up, and all the tubes light up. Aaaaaaaaaaagh!!!!!!!
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

If the amp was built with a switching jack where it's contacts are closed and grounded when there is no plug inserted, then there is usually no problem even if you bang a handfull of power cords trying to find out what is wrong.
In that scenario, the output transformer will "sense" the speaker load to be what ever the actual DC resistance of the OT secondary is... VERY low but still some kind of load.
The problem with unloaded OTs is when there is no load, like an open connection.
Then the OT senses the load to be very very high impedance... like infinity.

Remember that the OT "reflects" the speaker load impedance to the power tubes and multiplies that impedance to match what the power tubes need to operate correctly.
If a pair of tubes need 4000 ohms and the speaker is 8 ohms then the ratio of secondary to primary is 500:1.
If there was a speaker load of 16 ohms connected to the 8 ohm tap then it would be, 500 x 16 = 8000 ohms.
A miswired cabinet at 32 ohms would reflect back to the power tubes at 16,000 ohms! etc.
An open circuit, as with no speaker load, would be so high that the power tubes would see an infinite high reflected load or something stupidly high in the many many tens of thousands of ohms impedance.
The power tubes will try to put current and high AC (audio) voltage into that outrageously high impedance load.
When that happens, AC voltage in the OT will rise to a very high level.
The abnormally high AC voltage in the OT could jump across the very windings of the OT primary and blow up the OT or, jump across the tube socket lugs trying to find a path to ground. This draws mongo current form the power supply and will probably blow the fuse but wrecks the tube socket and sometimes the tube too.
Here's were a very well made OT can save you for a little while and a cheap one blows up.

Here's an old trick....
connect a 5watt 270 to 470 ohm resistor to ground across the highest secondary tap of the OT.
Use a 270 ohm for (4 to 8 ohms speakers) and 470 ohms for (8 to 32 ohm speakers).
Now no matter what happens, there is always some kind of "load" on the OT secondary that will help protect it from destruction if the cable comes unplugged, the jack fails or the speaker blows open.
The resistor is so high in DC resistance that most of the audio still goes into the speakers so it is invisible.
Hope you found that useful.....
 
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Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

awesome explanation Bruce
thanks for sharing that
cheers
t4d
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

Sensei Bruce! Good to see you here. Thanks for the tip. I'll have to try the resistor thing.

If I've got a rotary impedance selector for 4, 8 and 16, if I use the larger resistor, is that going to hurt the 4 ohm output?
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

Hi Scott, nice hearing from you again... missed you in Dallas.
And, hope you got your little amp quirk/question figured out from last month.

Your four ohm tap should be OK with a 470 ohm resistor but it is used more often with OTs having 16-32 ohm secondaries so I'd pick something a bit smaller for better open load protection. Maybe 330 ohms as a compromise.. it isn't really that critical.
FWIW, the larger the resistor value, the more invisible it becomes to the OT... that means that it has less squelching effect too so don't stray to far from the values I suggested.... anything is better then nothing though.

So for a 2 through 4 ohm tap on the OT, you could actually use a smaller value, like 170 ohms with no real problem.
I use a 270 5 watter as a general purpose load resistor myself (mostly because I have so many of them as I use them in the 5E3 kits for the cathode biasing resistor) but some English amps have that 16 ohm tap... those will get a 470 ohm resistor as the preffered resistor value.

Cheers all!!
 
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Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

Are we talking about leaving the amp on, but on standby...

...or having the thing fully on?
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

missionamps said:
Hi Scott, nice hearing from you again... missed you in Dallas.
And, hope you got your little amp quirk/question figured out from last month.

Yes, thanks. When that happened, I actually got on here and told everyone what a swell guy you are for helping a brother out. My head was getting bloody from banging it against the wall.

It's a constant learning game. Thanks again. You have always taken time for guys like me and we all appreciate it a lot.
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

If this whole speaker deal is wrapped up, would anyone mind answering a Mesa speaker question?

So the Mark 2c+ is supposed to be able to have headphones plugged into it instead of speakers (says so in the manual). Will this be hard on the power tubes, OT, or any other part of the amp, because that seems like an awfully small load.
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

about a month ago at a gig, my other's guitarist's single rectifier seemingly crapped out before we even got the chance to sound check. everything powered up and the tubes would glow, but no sound. after doing the basic troubleshooting (swapping cables, trying a different guitar, ect) with no luck, i was a bout to give up on it until i said to him "hey, plug it into my cabinet and see what happenes". and there was sound! turns out one of the wires came off the speaker jack on the inside of his cabinet.

that amp had to have been on for at least 15 minutes, as he insisted that it was the tubes that needed warming up. after it being on for that long with no load connected, i was surprised nothing fried, and no serious damage was done to any gear.

this is why it pays off to have a soldering iron handy, because it got us through the gig! and this is also why you should show up early!
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

is there a way to tell if the speaker or the cable is not working before you check to hear sound?
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

nepalnt21 said:
is there a way to tell if the speaker or the cable is not working before you check to hear sound?
Actually I just thought of simple check method to test it out. Bring a cheap ss combo with you that has a speaker cab output. Then connect your speaker cable from the combo to cab and just test away. This way the speaker and cables can be tested safely and nothing could be destroyed.
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

If you don't play through it, your amp will probably be OK.

If you discover you've turned on your amp without the speakers connected DO NOT TURN IT OFF with the speakers still disconnected.

Just plug the speakers in while the amp is still on.

That'll stress it less than turning it off with the speakers disconnected.

Lew
 
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Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

I've always wondered about that. Thanks for the in-depth explanation.

It makes me wonner if you did any teachin on this subject afore, 'cause I unnerstood it and I never had much call fer book lernin'. ;)
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

So Amp with a cable but not connected to a cab is more dangerous (on some amps)?
If I remember a guitarist of my old band did this and fried all 4 powertubes on his dual recto...
 
Re: Turning on amp without Speaker cable attached

nepalnt21 said:
what is the actual cause of the problem? like why does it mess up the amp?
Tube amps create high voltage and that power needs to go in to a load, or you may have unfortunate, unpredictable results. If you crank up the volume and play chords, you can actually have arcs jump across the tube sockets, destroying everything in the path.. unfortunately, I learned the hard way.. a long time ago, but I will never forget :laugh2:
 
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