Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

From EMG:

Yeah, they say that. But I have two 81's and two 85's at hand, and have owned very other many. The 85 has always been consistently louder than the 81. Technically, they're the exact same output at 9V because the preamp's headroom (more like lack of, lol) won't allow any more from either. However, If you 27V-mod both of them, the peaks would reach further up on the 85, I'm sure. Just look at the waveforms I shared on the second post. The 85's waveform is beefier. Not in a completely different league like a JH-B would be, mind you, but definitely there.

At least that has been my experience.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

If you read through my years of posts, you'll see me talk about the 81/85 swap a bunch. I'm no stranger.

I think the fuller response makes it seem "hotter", but you're not even comparing the pickups in the same guitar, so your waveforms are faulty from the start.

Plus, you also said the problematic 60 came in a set with that 81, so I'm even more skeptical of the validity of such a comparison.

Just saying, this is a single case with a lot of confounding variables. Certainly not a scientific comparison in the slightest. I'll take EMG's word on the issue and couple that with my own experience.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

This guy finds the 85 louder too.

Honestly, I don't think it's THAT much louder, though. I feel that if you play around with pickup heights, you can sorta get it work. I don't find the 81B/85N combo unusable, but I do find the 85 in the bridge kicks a little bit harder than the 81.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

If you read through my years of posts, you'll see me talk about the 81/85 swap a bunch. I'm no stranger.

I think the fuller response makes it seem "hotter", but you're not even comparing the pickups in the same guitar, so your waveforms are faulty from the start.

Plus, you also said the problematic 60 came in a set with that 81, so I'm even more skeptical of the validity of such a comparison.

Just saying, this is a single case with a lot of confounding variables. Certainly not a scientific comparison in the slightest. I'll take EMG's word on the issue and couple that with my own experience.

I understand my comparison was not scientific in the slightest, lol, just sharing what my experience has been. I'll see if I can record some DI's with both 81's and an 85 in a single guitar in these coming days.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

Something wrong with your wiring, then! Noise is a very rare complaint.

with just 3 wires and two pots not many things can go wrong. I have two EMG-powered guitars, one stock (81/60), the other modded by me (85/81) and they are *all* noisy , 60 and 85 less noisy , but the two 81's are more noisy than any other pup I have.
Also, i have heard or read many ppl having complaints on the noise dept . e.g. :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nXiFSPddz4

EMG 81/85 vs Seymour Duncan Nazgul/Sentient :
The Seymour Duncan's are much more controlled and less noisy

this guy proves why EMG 81 is more noisy : https://www.electrosmash.com/emg81

The numbers show that the EMG design will not reject the hum as good as the classic balanced design. This will not make much difference if any to the noise cancelling efficiency, 14.8 dB of hum rejection is still a nice number. As a rule of thumb in audio, 10dB in hum rejection is quite noticeable, 20 dB is very good and 30 dB and above is perfect.

Seymour Duncan Blackouts: "Active humbuckers use unbalanced inputs in a differential preamp. The problem is, an unbalanced differential preamp is not very effective at canceling hum. Our engineers figured out how to capture the tone that players want in an active design, but using balanced inputs. The result is 12dB to 14dB less noise, plus more lows, more highs, and more output. Simply put, Blackouts have more tone than other active pickups."

I am no blackouts fanboy, I am just stating my own experience and research on the matter.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

Not in my experience. It's something I keep reading too, so I guess we're not the only ones who feel like it.

When I got the 81/85 set , the aim was to replace my old livewires metal which were too loud. When I installed the 81 in the bridge and the 85 in the neck, I had to bury the 85 all the way down and lift the 81 just next to the strings so that I could have a somehow balanced output. Also I hated the tone. I swapped them , so that I put 85 in the bridge and 81 in the neck and I got balance. (and less noise in the bridge).

 

[Masta' C]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

When I got the 81/85 set , the aim was to replace my old livewires metal which were too loud. When I installed the 81 in the bridge and the 85 in the neck, I had to bury the 85 all the way down and lift the 81 just next to the strings so that I could have a somehow balanced output. Also I hated the tone. I swapped them , so that I put 85 in the bridge and 81 in the neck and I got balance. (and less noise in the bridge).

A pickup in the neck that has similar output to the bridge needs to be moved much farther away from the strings so it sees less of that energy or it will sound bad and/or overpower the bridge, simple as that.

For instance, if I put a JB in the neck and another in the bridge, I'm going to have to drop the neck pickup a ton to get them to balance. That's normal...the neck pickup sees a LOT more vibrational energy because of its placement along the length of the string.

At the second link you provided, he's discussing balanced vs differential active circuits, NOT to be confused with "balanced" coils on traditional passive pickups. Apples and Oranges here.

The fact that your 81 is the "noisiest" pickup you own tells me something is wrong...either with the pickup or the wiring

Don't even get me started on the first link...that's not proof of anything. I'm beginning to think your definition of "noisy" is different than the type of "noise" actives are known to mitigate. If so, then we're not talking about the same thing at all.

Look, you guys believe what you want. What we do know:

- The 81 & 85 are very close in output to begin with
- The 85's bigger/warmer voicing can make it seem bolder than the 81 and you will see a bigger response in a waveform at lower frequencies
- You can't mount either pickup as close to the strings in the neck position as you can in the bridge and expect to achieve balance between the two positions
- EMGs, when working correctly and amplified correctly, are less noisy than traditional passive humbucker designs.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

A pickup in the neck that has similar output to the bridge needs to be moved much farther away from the strings so it sees less of that energy or it will sound bad and/or overpower the bridge, simple as that.

This is to be expected. But I recall that with 81b/85n I had to bury the 85 down flat with the body to have some balance in volume, whereas with the 85b/81n setup the pups are about the same height. Again my experience.

- EMGs, when working correctly and amplified correctly, are less noisy than traditional passive humbucker designs.

OK. Let me make the list of my pups here from more noisy to less noisy :
- generic single coils AlNicos
- a repaired Carvin stacked SC
- dimarzio blaze single (mid position)
- both my EMG 81's - exactly the same noise, exact same behavior : I explain , in the morning , no noise at all. In the evenings when perpendicular to the amp, I get audible noise under high gain. When I turn the body parallel to the roof is noise is just aweful
- EMG 60 , EMG85 - same as above, just a little less noisy
- DMZ Super Distortion - less noise than 60,85, still there is audible noise when in series. Whereas in parallel : ultra quiet. Zero noise.
- DMZ Fast Track II in series
/* from this point on for the rest pups in the list the noise becomes almost undetectable */
- DMZ Chopper
- DMZ Fast Track I
- DMZ Fast Track II in parallel it is ultra quiet
- DMZ Super Distortion in parallel : ultra quiet. Zero noise.
- DMZ Blaze Bridge and Neck
- DMA Air Norton S

When I had the livewires (I the first version, some time from 1990), ok the metal was noisy but ultra powerful, so expected. But the livewire neck was about at DMZ Fast Track I, IIRC. So not noisy at all.

Lots of ppl I have talked too (in Greece we got 230V mains, does it matter I dunno) have told me similar experiences.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

OK, yet another WTF moment.

I just installed a brand new out of the box EMG 85 in the bridge position of my PRS SE. I'd be willing to bet it's a mislabeled 85X. On average, it's quieter than the standard working couple of 81's, 85, and 60 I have. However, the preamp seems to have quite a bit more headroom when I strum the strings hard. That was exactly my experience when I had the 81X and 60X I tried some time ago.

This is the waveform to show what I mean.



The first couple are the 85 and 60 in my LTD. The second is the 81 in the neck of my PRS SE first, and then this new alleged 85. As you can see, the ceiling on that last 85 is way above any of the other three.

Seriously, WTF is up with my luck. Two suspected defective EMG's out of the 6 I currently own? FML.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

On average, it's quieter than the standard working couple of 81's, 85, and 60 I have.

EMG says the 85X achieves noise reduction : 108 as opposed to 100 of the most noisy of the family the 81. So what you found fits the official description!

OK, yet another WTF moment.

I just installed a brand new out of the box EMG 85 in the bridge position of my PRS SE. I'd be willing to bet it's a mislabeled 85X. On average, it's quieter than the standard working couple of 81's, 85, and 60 I have. However, the preamp seems to have quite a bit more headroom when I strum the strings hard. That was exactly my experience when I had the 81X and 60X I tried some time ago.

This is the waveform to show what I mean.

The first couple are the 85 and 60 in my LTD. The second is the 81 in the neck of my PRS SE first, and then this new alleged 85. As you can see, the ceiling on that last 85 is way above any of the other three.

Seriously, WTF is up with my luck. Two suspected defective EMG's out of the 6 I currently own? FML.

it seems that the 81 is even weaker than the 60 in the neck position. And clearly the new 85 is different than the old. Man, surely, dont go play any lotto these days

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

it seems that the 81 is even weaker than the 60 in the neck position.

That may just be the different guitars and the pickup height. I prefer how the 81 in the neck sounds when it's a little backed off.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

If you bought the lastest one new from a reputable dealer, then its seems like the poorly performing ones may be suspect or non-genuine.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Two different-sounding EMG 60's... WTF?!

Could be that one of em is a miss-labeled 60-A.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Yep have a H60A in one of my Washburns with a 85 in the bridge. Was about to post that as a possibility. The A would be warmer and rounder with the Alnico V mag.