Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

[Corbic]

Hey all, I don't usually post in Tips and Clips, but today I have two questions for all of you:

First one is about the thumb on the fretting hand. Ever since I started playing nearly two years ago, I've always had my thumb hanging over the top of the neck. When I went to lessons, I was always told this was wrong, and I shouldn't do that, but try as I might, it just came naturally and happened. So now it's pretty ingrained into the way I play, and when I watch videos of all the guitarists I admire and try to emulate and make a part of my style, like Clapton, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Rory Gallagher, Billy Gibbons, Joe Perry,
Jimi Hendrix, Thin Lizzy's guitarists, Keith Richards, Pete Townshend, etc. all wrap their thumb around the top of the neck nearly all the time. It's very rare that they don't, and now I just have to wonder, am I doing something wrong? I don't play classical music which is what my instructor from before played (that and nothing else) and don't own a classical guitar or play in that style.

My second question is tied into the first a little bit. After the nearly two years of playing, I've come to a standstill in my ability. I've reached a plateau where I'm alright, I can play the rhythm parts to almost all my favorite classic rock and blues songs, but when it comes to solos, I usually can't play at the speed my heroes are, so I make one up, usually in Minor Pentatonic (thats another thing I'm trying to break out of). And now that I've reached this plateau in my playing abilities, so to speak, it feels like I can't go anywhere else. I can't play really fast no matter how hard I try, and its something I want to start working on. What exercises can you suggest to eventually get faster? I'm not talking neo-classical Yngwie speed, my favorite fast players are ones that really seem like they are giving it their all to get that fast, players like Gary Moore and Jeff Beck and even Jimmy Page in the early-to-mid seventies.

And now to tie it into my first question, is having my thumb hanging over the neck hampering my abilities to play? It sometimes feels like I really anchor it over the neck and stops my hand from moving at all, yet a lot of the faster players I described play with the thumb hanging over the neck. Players like Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Gary Moore, even Steve Morse, all play like that.

Thanks for any answers and replies guys, really appreciate it!

-Corbic

 

[CGord]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

I thought I used to keep my thumb planted on the back of the neck when aswering this question on another forum awhile ago, but after paying some attention to it, it turns out I have my thumb over the top quite a bit. I don't give a rat's butt about proper technique, though, & that's the great thing about art. Do whatever the hell works for you.

Re. speed...I'm a terrible lead player, but I am somewhat fast at it. All I can say is just keep doing it.

 

[Corbic]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

I also forgot to mention about the thumb question, I'm a sloppy picker, and when playing rhythm unless its something tremolo picked or very precise, I usually hit all the strings hard and mute the bass string that I don't play with my thumb.

 

[shogunlegend]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

i used to have similar problems, but there were two things i had to practice real hard at 1. keep thumb behind fretboard 2. pick each finger up before plucking the next note. it's easy to get in the habit of keeping one finger on the fretboard as you fret another. i would suggest particualarly concentrating on this.

it's important to keep your thumb behind so your fingers don't rub together so much and you contact the strings with only the fingertips. also you don't have to change hand positions as you come up or down the strings because your hand is not starting off at an angle. yeah, i think the thumb is a bad habit.

 

[CGord]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

Slightly off-topic, but I have seen two different guitarists in major bands recently (Mark Morton & can't remember the other one) who had his thumb sticking out under the neck. Both were riffing on the lower strings & fretting notes pretty high up the neck, & man, it just looked weird.

 

[wahwah]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

Hey Corbic, the thumb question really comes down to what kind of player you are/want to be. If your inclination is toward legato speed playing or classical then you would be well advised to force yourself to keep Mr Thumb from ever showing his head over the neck, because you will need every technical advantage to maintain speed. However, if you tend towards the players that you mentioned, then the thumb issue becomes completely irrelevant, in fact a lot of those players have superior expressive techniques using bends and vibrato, because they are wringing that neck with their fretting hand and taking full control of it by keeping their wrist fluid, which is virtually impossible to do with your thumb planted. Imagine trying to do BB. KIng vibrato with your thumb stuck to the back of the neck! I'd love to hear some kid with a handful of gigs under his belt telling Jeff Beck how he's got it all wrong and should give his Grammy's back!

As for the plateau you've reached, it will interest you to know that this can be an often repeated phenomenon throughout your playing experience. The fact that you have focused on working out the rhythm parts to songs is a very good thing, because that is the most useful skill when it comes to playing in bands. Considering the type of players who inspire you, can I suggest that you check out a guy named Paul Kossoff, from a band called Free who were around in the late 60's/early 70's. This guy would often play 16 bar solos with about a dozen notes in them, but every note is dripping with expression and emotion. Can I suggest maybe starting with working out some of his solos, focusing on the space he creates, the phrasing and the expression. Here's a doco on them to get you started. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3HZJ9eRmrI&mode=related&search= You'll also find some live clips on You Tube, and if you want to buy a CD, get an album called "Fire & Water." I'm suggesting this firstly because I think you'll like the band and Kossof's playing, but also because it might give you some inspiration to explore your own expressive techniques, which can be the beginning of a lifetime of learning and enjoyment. If you get to a point where you really want to develop your speed, then you will want to explore a different set of techniques, but for now I would recommend that you develop a very sturdy walk before you attempt to run. I hope this helps.


Cheers..................wahwah

 

[shogunlegend]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

malmsteen! listen to all the malmsteen you can and play as much as you can every day. he blazes, his vibrato is impeccable, and he has some real old school technique. or you can do the aforementioned and listen to a bunch of old farts talking about playing some riffs (no offense :headbang

 

[wahwah]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

malmsteen! listen to all the malmsteen you can and play as much as you can every day. he blazes, his vibrato is impeccable, and he has some real old school technique. or you can do the aforementioned and listen to a bunch of old farts talking about playing some riffs (no offense :headbang

There's a couple of options for you Corbic, you can decide for yourself what suits you best!

"Unleash the ****ing fury!" Heheheeee.... Actually, here's a clip of Malmsteen's take on the blues, please take careful note of his left thumb. You were saying, shogunlegend? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzW8fi8z5C8&mode=related&search=

But here is my favorite Malmsteen parody. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX0bcZjnjaM It seems that people just love to take the piss out of poor old Yngwie for some reason. Why don't we see pisstake parodies of Hendrix, Page and Gibbons? I wonder.


Cheers...................wahwah

 

[shogunlegend]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

thanks, i appreciate you inadvertently supporting my comments. first of all malmsteen is extremely fond of 50s strats which have smaller thinner necks. he's also like 6'4, so his hands are pretty big. notice how he moves his thumb behind the fretboard whenever he does a run. he's usually hooking it when performing a vibrato. all i was saying anyway was that he should try practicing that way. everyone hooks their thumb, there's no one way to play. i'm sure there are good reasons why many of the best guitar instructors teach students correct thumb placement.

oh yeah, nice clip by the way. i haven't seen that one for a while. thanks for sharing.

 

[Loserchief]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

With the thumb behind the neck in the classical position you get bigger stretches and imo a lighter fretting touch. Since you don't hook your thumb for vibrato and bends you'll need more strength in your individual fingers but that's a solveable problem.
Nothing personal, but before starting with speed, start working on precision, if you always hit all the strings when riffing that's far to sloppy to talk about fast playing to begin with. Speed is nothing without control imo.
Apart from that, classical hand position might help you since it relaxes the fingers and might help you get the flow started when playing fast.

 

[fingerace]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

IMO practise with the thumb behind the neck, get the speed (AND ACCURACY) you want, but when you play just forget about it.... It will either come on its own when it's time for a fast lick (although changing positions isn't that good) or the thumb will remain on top, but the speed will be there too. (with the accuracy)

The players you listed didn't have any problems and neither will you...

 

[Corbic]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

Thanks everyone for the advice! I'm going to start by working on my accuracy as Loserchief suggested, since I just spent a week of playing only acoustic (on a trip to North Carolina), and it made me realize how incredibly sloppy a player I am. So precision is my first priority at the moment, speed will have to come later.

And wahwah, thank you for the great advice about expression and getting over the block in my playing. Free is actually one of my favorite bands, and Paul Kossoff is a fantastic guitar player. I didn't get around to listing all the guitarists that (I hope!) influence my playing, but he is one of them. I'm going to actually be doing that (analyzing guitar solos of my favorite guitarists), with a few guitarists and a few of my favorite solos by them, to see what makes them tick, so to speak. I use lots of bends and vibrato in my playing, so I'm not sure if it would be better to keep my thumb behind the neck or over it, so I'll just have to try both.

Yngwie isn't exactly the speed or precision I'm after, like I said before, fastest I'd ever want is Gary Moore, and he gets there with a very heavy touch. But like I said, I'm going to try both thumb-behind-neck/lighter touch and thumb-over-neck/heavier touch to find whats right for me. Thanks very much all!

-Corbic

 

[Robbiedbee]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

With the thumb thing, I'd say just do what is most comfortable. I tend to have the thumb hanging over the top for chords, but planted at the back for lead stuff. Switch freely between what is better, whenever.

I know you say you're at a plateau in your playing, but I have found in my playing that it's not a case of altering something drastic in your style (which in my case was the introduction of my pinky), it's just finding newer stuff to learn. Play outside your genre of music. Go to lots of gigs. Get right to the front and watch the guitar players hands! Play with other musicians. Practice scales to a metronome, (www.metronomeonline.com, yeah). Knowing the scales, as well as gathering influences from lots of sources will help your soloing and improv.

Up until I had been playing for about 2 years all my favourite songs came to me gradually, I could see obvious improvements, and it was nice. I never really practiced much at all, just had fun. It sounds like you're in the same situation I was after I learned to play 95% of all the Maiden songs. As I say, just draw yourself up a practice routine and stick to it.

Feel free to tell me to shove my advice. For all I know, you could be practicing 9 hours a day. But best of luck with everything! With a Strat like yours you deserve to be awesome!

ps. Any bigger pics of it than the one in your avatar?

 

[Corbic]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

With the thumb thing, I'd say just do what is most comfortable. I tend to have the thumb hanging over the top for chords, but planted at the back for lead stuff. Switch freely between what is better, whenever.

I know you say you're at a plateau in your playing, but I have found in my playing that it's not a case of altering something drastic in your style (which in my case was the introduction of my pinky), it's just finding newer stuff to learn. Play outside your genre of music. Go to lots of gigs. Get right to the front and watch the guitar players hands! Play with other musicians. Practice scales to a metronome, (www.metronomeonline.com, yeah). Knowing the scales, as well as gathering influences from lots of sources will help your soloing and improv.

Up until I had been playing for about 2 years all my favourite songs came to me gradually, I could see obvious improvements, and it was nice. I never really practiced much at all, just had fun. It sounds like you're in the same situation I was after I learned to play 95% of all the Maiden songs. As I say, just draw yourself up a practice routine and stick to it.

Feel free to tell me to shove my advice. For all I know, you could be practicing 9 hours a day. But best of luck with everything! With a Strat like yours you deserve to be awesome!

ps. Any bigger pics of it than the one in your avatar?

Coincidentally enough, I usually have my thumb on the back for chords and my thumb over the neck for lead work LOL.

I'm going to try and draw in more things, and just improve on what I can. Precision, melodic sense, expression, speed, etc. Thanks for the advice.

And since you asked, heres a bigger picture of my Strat (the best guitar I've ever played!).

 

[TimmyPage]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

Heh, I have the same issue. Except I don't have a choice really, I have huge hands. I can put the thumb behind for lead work but it either bends awkwardly, or goes completely parallel to the guitar neck (think about that.. no not perpendicular, parallel.. yes now try playing something like that.. you most likely cant unless you are double jointed..)

 

[Loserchief]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

Heh, I have the same issue. Except I don't have a choice really, I have huge hands. I can put the thumb behind for lead work but it either bends awkwardly, or goes completely parallel to the guitar neck (think about that.. no not perpendicular, parallel.. yes now try playing something like that.. you most likely cant unless you are double jointed..)

well, a full classical hand position acutally puts the hand and thumb parallel to the neck, that's why classical guitarists usually have the guitar on the left leg and use footstools. That way the neck is higher up and you can go for a perfectly parallel hand position. Prog guitarists often use the same position(so do i) and because of that usually have their guitar strapped very high with the neck being a lot higher than the body.
But it will hurt with the guitar in regular sitting position or a low strap.

 

[wahwah]

Re: Two Questions for you guys - One about thumbs, the other technique

And wahwah, thank you for the great advice about expression and getting over the block in my playing. Free is actually one of my favorite bands, and Paul Kossoff is a fantastic guitar player. I didn't get around to listing all the guitarists that (I hope!) influence my playing, but he is one of them. I'm going to actually be doing that (analyzing guitar solos of my favorite guitarists), with a few guitarists and a few of my favorite solos by them, to see what makes them tick, so to speak. I use lots of bends and vibrato in my playing, so I'm not sure if it would be better to keep my thumb behind the neck or over it, so I'll just have to try both. -Corbic

You're welcome Corbic. I should have known by the players you mentioned that you would have heard and liked Koss! If you check my myspace page, the band I was in during the early 90's does a version of I'm A Mover. Kossoff is a great starting point for studying how to build solos with the emphasis on musicality and emotion, and the use of space between phrases. Don't be surprised if half way through following him around the fretboard, you have forgotten all about what your thumb is doing! Most if not all of the players you love are self taught, and they are too consumed with creating stunning, lasting musical statements to be too caught up with technical matters. They have developed their own road map to get to their destinations, and then generations of guitarists continue to follow them down the paths they have created. You can see plenty of cases of the likes of Beck & Hendrix playing bass notes with their thumbs! "Correctness" is not for everyone, and it certainly wasn't part of the equation for many of the great innovators. The same thing happens with drummers, deciding whether to play traditional or matched grip with their snare hand. The "purists" will say "no, no, no, you must blah, blah, blah," and then they all shut the **** up when John Bonham or Ian Paice come along and remind the purists of why they are teaching 10 year olds while these true masters are matched gripping their way into music history. To thine own self be true!

From my own experience, that frustrating plateau is usually a sign that something is about to change, some great or small revelation, which propels you onto another level. As long as you answer that call to absorb more from the sources that inspire you, you will continue to progress, until the next plateau, when the cycle will start all over again. A little patience with yourself, and an openess to keep learning, will help you find your way.

In the meantime, have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNWfPKuUdJI

Best of luck with it Corbic, let us know how things progress for you.


Regards.................wahwah