Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

[heymcz]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

Gents, all well and good....just bear in mind that you never really understand a pickup until you play it and see how it reacts under your hands. E.Q. does matter much, but no soundclip is going to give you the feel of how the thing handles. As a listener, you only hear the end result. As a player, you adjust your technique and settings subtly based on the qualities of the pickup--the JB's flubby bass, the Full Shred's vocal onset. Those qualities of nuance are not captured for me in someone else's soundclips. Would be good for getting a general idea about a pickup's E.Q., though....

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

I personally would like to extend an invitation to any members with a good collection of SD pups to consider taking up the challenge, particularly Blueman335, Lew and Zhang.

I probably wouldn't be much help right now because:

a) I have only one Duncan pu at the moment, a C3 in a 355, and

b) I don't have any recording gear, had to sell it when I got laid off a while back.

To me the best way to learn about a pickup is to ask somebody what the pickup I want to know about is like compared to a pickup I'm already familiar with. If he has played both fairly extensively he can tell me the differences between the two, and this "relativity" factor holds up regardless of how different the gear and playing style of the guru on the unknown-to-me pickup -- with the exception of a guy who uses super-high gain all the time.

If the pickup A is brighter and thinner through his rig and touch than pickup B, it will be through mine too, and anyone else's. Yes both pickups will sound very different through the various rigs and players, but within each and every such context, pickup A will STILL sound thinner and brighter than pickup B. It's a tried and true method that has yet to fail me after all these years.

 

[Filipe Marquez]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

I think a database of soundclips would be a great idea! i don't think it matters the fact that it will never be possible to cover all the possible combinations of guitar woods, different amp types or different effects, i just think that, IF IT WILL BE HELPFUL TO SOMEONE, IT'S WORTH DOING IT. I'm in for helping if you guys need!

 

[wanmei1]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

I probably wouldn't be much help right now because:

a) I have only one Duncan pu at the moment, a C3 in a 355, and

b) I don't have any recording gear, had to sell it when I got laid off a while back.

To me the best way to learn about a pickup is to ask somebody what the pickup I want to know about is like compared to a pickup I'm already familiar with. If he has played both fairly extensively he can tell me the differences between the two, and this "relativity" factor holds up regardless of how different the gear and playing style of the guru on the unknown-to-me pickup -- with the exception of a guy who uses super-high gain all the time.

If the pickup A is brighter and thinner through his rig and touch than pickup B, it will be through mine too, and anyone else's. Yes both pickups will sound very different through the various rigs and players, but within each and every such context, pickup A will STILL sound thinner and brighter than pickup B. It's a tried and true method that has yet to fail me after all these years.

Zhang I have to make this post fairly quickly so I won't address all the points you have raised. Let me just say this.
It is my opinion that if this thing is ever going to happen then your support and participation is crucial.
I say this because you more than any one perhaps has been so active in your work with making pups and experimenting with magnets.
Many members I am sure would love to hear the results of your work.
Let me just address the two points you raise as to why you couldn't be of much help at hhe moment.

a) You have only one SD pup at the moment.
I am more than willing to send / lend you an SD jazz Neck and I think that many other members here trust you enough to send you one or more of their pups.
So I think through this forum it may be possible for you to have access to a whole range of different pups.

b) You don't have any recording gear.
Perhaps we can organise for you to hook up with another Forum member in North Hollywood or somewhere else in Los Angeles for a day to use their home studio recording equipment.
If you'd prefer not to play then perhaps a proffesional guitarist forum member would be willing to join you both and do the playing . That would leave the techical supervision and direction of the recordings up to you.

Once again let me reiterate that you as a dedicated and passionate pup researcher and maker might like to consider that many others would have more than a casual interest in listening to the fruits of your labor.
Cheers:usa1:

 

[J.K.]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

even with the obvious limitations, i think it's a hell of a good idea. certainly worth exploring further - maybe with a poll?

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

even with the obvious limitations, i think it's a hell of a good idea. certainly worth exploring further - maybe with a poll?

How about no poll, and the creation of a database?

If I had access to the site's backend, I would make the **** thing already.

SD web guru, make us a database please! Need embedded player and the ability to search on any field! Thanks!

 

[gripweed]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

You are all way too anal about this! Just have the clips of the guitars players playing with their pickups, amps and effects. Then tell us what you used. The more players who submit the better. You can get an idea of how a particular pickup sounds in many different rigs from many different players.

There is no scientific way to do it. Listen to the clips on the Duncan site all played through the same rig. They all sound the same to me. But the '59 in my LP sounded very different from the PG's I have in it now. And please spare me the whole tone is in your hands crap.

I don't see why we would need a database. Just put them in tips and clips or in the vault.

Just my $.02.

 

[MikeS]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

You’re right, it is all talk, however that’s all we’ve got. A webpage full of sound clips would be helpful, but to a large degree Duncan already has that within their own site. In order to make worthwhile comparisons the clips would have to be carefully controlled. The same guitar through the same rig played by the same player playing the same licks would be the only fair way to do it, and even then you’d need multiple guys recording the licks in several different styles before anyone could have a good idea of how each pickup

It’s a lot of work should anyone ever do, but to be honest the clips would still merely be examples of the pickups, and until a player has a chance to hear a pickup in his guitar through his rig he’ll never have a full understanding of what to expect from a given pickup because of the nuances unique to every player’s individual style. So yes, it is all talk, but that, IMO is the greatest way to at least get an idea of where to look. Yes you get a myriad of opinions, and they sometimes are quite contrasting, but that just goes to show you how varying the tastes of all the users here are. After a while you really begin to get an idea of whose opinions are the most trustworthy, or what other’s ears are most in line with your own.

Heck part of the tone quest is the journey. It’s also valuable to head down the wrong road from time to time so that you can hear and understand why you don’t like a certain characteristic. That greater affords you the chance to discover what you like by knowing that which you do not like.

So, sure, a database wouldn’t be a bad thing, and it may showcase some of the nuances of each pickup. However, in no way whatsoever will it replace the words we use to share our own experiences. It is all talk, and that’s not a bad thing.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

In order to make worthwhile comparisons the clips would have to be carefully controlled. The same guitar through the same rig played by the same player playing the same licks would be the only fair way to do it

+1

My idea is to use a computer system like Line6s Guitar Port with the XT Pod Software, choose a few presets and generate directly a .wav or a .mp3 file directly from the computer.

The only variable would be the guitar. Choose three types (solid body SC, HB and an archtop) and the final outcome could give an "accurate rough" idea of what that p'up could sound in your guitar through your rig.

It's a drop in the ocean, but better than nothing... I think.

My .02 of good will.

HTH,

Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
Milano, Italy

 

[gripweed]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

You’re right, it is all talk, however that’s all we’ve got. A webpage full of sound clips would be helpful, but to a large degree Duncan already has that within their own site. In order to make worthwhile comparisons the clips would have to be carefully controlled. The same guitar through the same rig played by the same player playing the same licks would be the only fair way to do it, and even then you’d need multiple guys recording the licks in several different styles before anyone could have a good idea of how each pickup.

Everybody says this, but why is it true? Music and tone is an art not a science.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

Who cares what the pickup sounds like? That's an almost irrelevant detail.

How it plays is the important question.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

I think a database of soundclips would be a great idea! i don't think it matters the fact that it will never be possible to cover all the possible combinations of guitar woods, different amp types or different effects, i just think that, IF IT WILL BE HELPFUL TO SOMEONE, IT'S WORTH DOING IT. I'm in for helping if you guys need!

There are a number of posts by players who have put the exact same PU in several of their guitars, and said it sounded different in every one, even though they used the same amp. Which one of those would you choose as being the "right" sound? This alone shoots down the value of clips to represent the "true" sound of a PU.

The reason some of us more experienced guys are skeptical is that you'll probably wind up more confused & disillusioned than you are now. Without taking into account the dozens of major variables, you probably won't be able to duplicate the sound in the clips. All it takes is one variable to throw off the tone. Amps & speakers are as much of the tone as the whole guitar itself. Do clips really "help" anyone? There will probably be a lot of pissed off players who didn't get the sound they expected.

You do realize that not only does every piece of wood vary, but so do PU's, pots, amps, tubes, & speakers, due to variances inherent in the raw materials & construction. So if a clip has a slightly hotter example of a PU, through slightly brighter pots ( 543K instead of 500K), combined with an amp that is a little stronger in a certain treble frequency, thru mellowed tubes with some wear on them, and a variation in the speaker with a little less impedence, you can use all the "same" gear and not sound the same. What good does that do anyone? It's misleading.

With my years of re-wiring, I just don't think you can quantify all these hundreds of inter-related variables. Tone is a living, breathing thing that doesn't fit into neat little definitions. It's elusive. You're wanting to quatify something that can't be boxed in. The reason a certain PU works, or doesn't work, is that it interacts with many different fluid things to produce the final sound. You're looking at PU's as the fixed center of the universe, whereas they are only one piece of a shifting puzzle. Clips are an enticing short cut that isn't real.

It all boils down to learning where your tone comes from & how to shape it. If you're serious about tone, you HAVE to swap PU's, magnets, and pots. When you do that, you can move a guitar's tone in the direction you want. A stock PU with stock wiring is a "one-size-fits-all" thing that you may not be happy with. If I went by clips, I wouldn't have most of the PU's I do now, because I've made many mods to get my desired tones.

If you think PU's & re-wiring are confusing now, just wait until there's more clips to listen to. Good luck trying to duplicate them.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

In order to make worthwhile comparisons the clips would have to be carefully controlled. The same guitar through the same rig played by the same player playing the same licks would be the only fair way to do it

I must disagree, as fully as is possible.

We have that now, clips for each pickup of the same song in the same plank on the same amp on the Seymour Duncan website.

The utility is diminished there because they are recorded in a "perfect" environment.

Hearing what a pickup sounds like in a $400 guitar on a $200 amp is more like what most of the consumers will be using, so creating user files that reflect just that, what users actually use the products in is where the greatest utility lies.

To exaggerate, the consumer doesn't care what a '59 sounds like in a 1959 Les Paul through a Dumble head and a Mesa cabinet, the consumer cares what the '59 sounds like in an Epiphone Les Paul through a Fender Hot Rod.

Bring the consumers tones that aren't up on the pedestal.

I know I personally want to hear your tones, and your tones, the tones from 16 year olds and 60 year olds, solid state, tube, cheap, expensive, I want to hear all those tones.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

part of the tone quest is the journey. It’s also valuable to head down the wrong road from time to time so that you can hear and understand why you don’t like a certain characteristic. That greater affords you the chance to discover what you like by knowing that which you do not like.

+1. A post last year had an excellent quote: "Tone is a journey, not a destination." It's a unique creation shaped by the hands of a craftsman, not neatly plotted moves on a chess board.

 

[DazH]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

seeing as it's a database - ideally with the selection of "guitar wood= [x] - neck = [x]" approximations attached to it, it would have helped many people out to a large extent.

If you're not interested in a ballpark estimation of the sound, dont listen to them. I dont see why people are almost fighting the idea of it, rather than just not bothering to listen to any if they dont want to.

I certainly listened to the sound clips of any manufacturers pickups to get an idea of the sound. Some people dont want to trawl through forum posts about how it sounds in peoples descriptions (baring in mind these are based on whatever guitar/wood etc -they- plugged it into) exactly the same as sound clips would be.

it's more accessable & useful in my opinion.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

There are a number of posts by players who have put the exact same PU in several of their guitars, and said it sounded different in every one, even though they used the same amp. Which one of those would you choose as being the "right" sound? This alone shoots down the value of clips to represent the "true" sound of a PU.

Exactly.

In particular the choice between all that PAF rubbish - 59, aph, ants, jazz, pg and whatnot depends more on the guitar you put it in than on the owner's taste.

I went through many of them, and extensive pickup changes, in two different quality Les Pauls and in an Explorer. Same amp with no room and no mics involved - Vox Tonelab. into AGK 240 Monitor headphones.

The winner, even for the same taste (mine), was a different one for each guitar. And as I said, how it sounds is an (almost) irrelevant detail. How it plays is more important.

 

[alex1fly]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

A database of clips... sounds like the Tips and Clips forum to me. It has exactly what a lot of you are asking for. Between the Tips and Clips forum, youtube.com, the Pickup Lounge, the SD clips, and various members' Soundclick and Myspace links, you should be able to get a pretty good idea of pretty much any pickup. Those of you who are willing to contribute to a database project, why not contribute to what's already in place?

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

I'm not AGAINST this idea per se, and some folks seem to get a lot out of soundclips. If somebody in NH or nearby wants to work something out, I'd be willing to do it. I'm not worried about doing some of the playing, I was playing in clubs long before I was a winder. Plus it might be cool just to hang with some local Forumites.

If any local folks are interested drafting me into something like this, PM me.

All that said, I don't think my support or lack thereof would make or break this project. One monkey don't stop no show, winder or not.

Zhang I have to make this post fairly quickly so I won't address all the points you have raised. Let me just say this.
It is my opinion that if this thing is ever going to happen then your support and participation is crucial.
I say this because you more than any one perhaps has been so active in your work with making pups and experimenting with magnets.
Many members I am sure would love to hear the results of your work.
Let me just address the two points you raise as to why you couldn't be of much help at hhe moment.

a) You have only one SD pup at the moment.
I am more than willing to send / lend you an SD jazz Neck and I think that many other members here trust you enough to send you one or more of their pups.
So I think through this forum it may be possible for you to have access to a whole range of different pups.

b) You don't have any recording gear.
Perhaps we can organise for you to hook up with another Forum member in North Hollywood or somewhere else in Los Angeles for a day to use their home studio recording equipment.
If you'd prefer not to play then perhaps a proffesional guitarist forum member would be willing to join you both and do the playing . That would leave the techical supervision and direction of the recordings up to you.

Once again let me reiterate that you as a dedicated and passionate pup researcher and maker might like to consider that many others would have more than a casual interest in listening to the fruits of your labor.
Cheers:usa1:

 

[MikeS]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

But see, I don’t care what Pickup X sounds like through anyone else’s rig. I know what my rig sounds like, and when looking for a new pickup I want to be able to hear fair comparisons between two pickups. It doesn’t matter what kind of rig two pickups were compared in, so long as I can hear both, find the nuances between them, and then apply what I hear to how my rig already sounds. Even then, it’s very much a “first step” in the journey. Compressed internet sound clips and the advice of the forumites are only going to point you in the right direction… they aren’t going to end anyone’s tone quest.

Now, I’m not completely against the idea; I just don’t think it’s going to be this glorious missing puzzle piece that others seem to think it will be. If anything it will confuse the issue more, IMO.

 

[wanmei1]

Re: Until we have a Soundclip Data base of pickups its all just a lot of talk.

+1. A post last year had an excellent quote: "Tone is a journey, not a destination." It's a unique creation shaped by the hands of a craftsman, not neatly plotted moves on a chess board.

-1. A post today had an even more excellent quote :
"Tone is not a journey, nor a destination". It's many different things to many different people. :knockedou