UV Curable Guitar Finish

[Evan Skopp]

My new company represents a line of UV curable finish products and I'm going to handle their sales to the luthier market. This is a new area for me and I'm trying to gather as much information as possible to educate myself to be a better salesman and offer better customer service. From what I understand about the products, UV offers a much faster and "greener" method of applying finish products, including grain sealer and gloss finish top coat.

Click here to see a video that shows the sealer and top coat (with tint for a sunburst finish) being applied and the UV lights curing in real time.

So, from you guitar finish pros, what do I need to know about UV finishes? What are the pros and cons? What objections should I be prepared to get?

Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

^^ I`m unfortunately just as much a beginner as you are in this specific area, probably even more, but I´d also be very interested to know because the SPDI system itself looks pretty nice....

 

[dominus]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

It's a little bit of an investment, but for small builders, it'd probably pay for itself within a few months. It'd really cut down on the delivery time for guitars.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

Does it sound like nitro? does it cure like nitro -- getting thinner with time?

that's what people are going to be asking. "Oh that's great but HOW DOES IT COMPARE TO THE 1950'S?!"

y'know, tonally and otherwise....

 

[BrianS.]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

This stuff wasn't around when I went to luthiery school, but I spoke with a student/teacher's assistant about it once...a couple years ago. They have a set up for using this stuff at the school. Might be a good place to call for info, or as a sales contact. http://www.southeastmn.edu/

 

[Zerberus]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

Does it sound like nitro? does it cure like nitro -- getting thinner with time?

that's what people are going to be asking. "Oh that's great but HOW DOES IT COMPARE TO THE 1950'S?!"

y'know, tonally and otherwise....

While true, at some point in the next few years guitarists are going to have to accept that Nitro is traditional, but sucks for the environment and is therfore RIGHTLY outlawed in some countries, and eventually it will be outlawed in all of them. When that time comes people can either harp, harp, harp, harp about how life sucks, or they can finally accept that the thickness of a hard (essentially plastic) finish is a million times more important than the exact plastic compound.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

Thanks for the responses. This is helpful. Slightly off topic, but do people claim to hear the difference between nitro and non-nitro? I mean really hear the difference in a blind listening test?

 

[Zerberus]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

^^ claim, yes. But it´s hard to empirically test., and even harder to verify credibly.

My Master and I went though this discussion for about 6 months during my apprenticeship together with other luthiers in the area because at the time the topic of banning Nitro in Swiotzerland was hot. None of them spray nitro anymore except on special order, and we´re about to get into the reasons...

I was always of the opinion that thinner is better, material is secondary as long as its hard plastic. Others said that the nitro itself was the important factor, almost touting it as in some way magical. So eventually we built an instrument, nitroed it, and recorded it. Then we removed all hardware as non invasively as possible to keep everything as consistent as it could be setup wise, chemically stripped it, and did the same with polyurethane. BTW this was a dreadnought, not an electric.

Neither we, nor any of the other luthiers in the greater Basel area (which at the time included the highly acclaimed Blade guitars) were able to hear a difference in the soundclips. We were both 100% sure we did not hear an acoustic difference, either.

To this day I still say the only reason nitro is so popular is because it´s easier to apply thinly, meaning less sanding for the same end result.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

I'm sold on this video. I really want.

 

[Bludave]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

Thanks for the responses. This is helpful. Slightly off topic, but do people claim to hear the difference between nitro and non-nitro? I mean really hear the difference in a blind listening test?

Yes I thik they do. In a blind test.... probably not, but I have a biddy that bought a beautiful Les Paul that was just stuffy tonally. My friend (Cris Mirabella) stripped the poly finish off nd refinished the guitar in nitro & the guitar just came alive. It rang like a bell after the nitro was on it. Its a thinner finish & allows the wood to move and breath in a way that poly just doesn't.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

"After some time at the range, we came to the conclusion that it is not bulletproof. However, we are still testing to see if it is microwaveable, and dishwasher safe.":chairfall:laugh2:


I LOVE insane luthiers, these guys need to give me a job NOW :deal:

Yes I thik they do. In a blind test.... probably not, but I have a biddy that bought a beautiful Les Paul that was just stuffy tonally. My friend (Cris Mirabella) stripped the poly finish off nd refinished the guitar in nitro & the guitar just came alive. It rang like a bell after the nitro was on it. Its a thinner finish & allows the wood to move and breath in a way that poly just doesn't.

I´ve experienced this quite often too, usually on intruments that have a really thick base or primer coat, or where the finish wasn`t cured properly (dectectable by large amounts of smearing while stripping), in poly AND nitro. IMO the become equally as lively with a properly applied thin poly finish.

Side note: This is why for the first about 10 years after my training I would only do hard finishes on special order, because compared with oil any finish dampens a guitar, and I pride myself in getting the maximum potential out of what´s available.

 

[dominus]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

Yes I thik they do. In a blind test.... probably not, but I have a biddy that bought a beautiful Les Paul that was just stuffy tonally. My friend (Cris Mirabella) stripped the poly finish off nd refinished the guitar in nitro & the guitar just came alive. It rang like a bell after the nitro was on it. Its a thinner finish & allows the wood to move and breath in a way that poly just doesn't.

That's probably a thin vs thick issue. I messed up painting a body and the stripper I used was a little too powerful and removed the new paint and a good amount of the old clearcoat. (I just scuff sand and paint over the original finish.) The original poly black paint was still there, but the body was MUCH lighter afterwards. I didn't play the guitar before refinishing it, but it could be more "airy" now.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

Evan,

Yes; people claim it...falsely, I might add. But there is more to it than tone. It's about feel, look, and tradition as well.

Suffice it to say, anyone who cares about having a lacquer finish wouldn't even look past the name of the UV stuff before deciding, "Not on my guitar." So I think the key would be to focus on marketing the stuff to guitar manufacturers that don't really cater to the vintage/traditionalist cork sniffer market.

Personally, I am a part of that cork sniffer market. I do highly prefer lacquer finishes, for the reasons I stated above. But I see absolutely nothing wrong with guitar making technology moving in non-traditional directions.

 

[tubecrunch]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

I have a nitro finished guitar that sounds like ass, and one that sounds heavenly. I have several w poly finishes that sound great. I'm more concerned at this point about the aging. I don't sell my stuff. What's my 6 string hostage going to look like in 15 years?

 

[Zerberus]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

I have a nitro finished guitar that sounds like ass, and one that sounds heavenly. I have several w poly finishes that sound great. I'm more concerned at this point about the aging. I don't sell my stuff. What's my 6 string hostage going to look like in 15 years?

That depends to a large extent on how aou store /care for the instruments. Nitro finishes that are not stored in a relatively controlled environment (no sudden shifts in humidity or temperature, a case is a huge help here) will very slowly but consistently shrink, until the point where the surface cant srink any more and the lacquer then develops the fabled "checking", and it will continue to grow more yellow over time (most noticable on a white guitar obviously). The checking speeds up considerably when the temperature and humidity are uncontrolled and can shift dramatically (opening windows in the winter, for example).

Well cared for and in a controlled environment, your instruments will show minimal if any variation in cosmetics in 15 years. But if you leave them all out all year on stands and open and close windows "randomly", even the poly finishes will eventually develop cracks

 

[Ayrton]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

The thickness of the material is what counts, period. Lacquer does not "breathe", wood does not "breathe".

You can take any guitar, and strip off its finish and it will resonate differently. However, since most people like some kind of finish on their guitars, you have to paint it with something.

Lacquer wears (and shrinks) of course, and that is the appeal for some. Polys do not wear the same (or as easily), and that is the appeal for others.

I will take a thin poly finish over a thick lacquer any day. Thick kills vibration...

Back on topic!

Evan, I know John Suhr and Tom Anderson (as I am sure many are) using UV cured finishes.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

Modern Nitro's seem to contain various plasticisers now to help minimise checking, so they're not really the 'pure' nitro of the good/bad ol' days, they're creeping back towards poly territory.

I did a lot of research before i sprayed my LP build, and the general consensus seemed to be that it is the thickness of a finish that is more important than the type of finish.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

One of the things about the SPDI UV top coat is that it sprays on much thinner than poly and hybrid products; so much so that it requires finishers - particularly thiose trained in automotive spraying - to adjust their technique. But from what I'm hearing here, that could actually be a good thing. Right?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

...What objections should I be prepared to get?

"Who are you and why can't I speak to an expert?" :laugh2:

But seriously you're going to walk in to some discussions where the luthier thinks they know more than you do on this subject. For a salesman that creates a unique challenge. You run the risk of being spoken to condescendingly, and with unnecessary resistance to the benefits of the products and processes.

If I had to sell finish to luthiers the first thing I'd do is get them talking about their current finishing methods. Chances are they are extremely proud of it, having developed it through experiences. Listen for complaints. There will be many. They will say "this works so well, we used to use XYZ but we had problems with..." (adhesion, cure time, buff, stretch, fading, etc) They'll also tell you what they don't like about various new finishes, what they hated about yesteryear's finishes.

Then, rather than telling them your finish will solve all their problems, I'd try to get them talking about how they think they'd use this UV finish if they had it. Some will stick to their time honored techniques but say "it would be nice to know I could seal a guitar in one day though..." or they'll draw their own conclusions about cycle time. They've all been under a deadline at some point in their career, waiting for lacquer to dry.

Re: the finish debate, I am on the side of "thinner is better" and nitro, while an amazing material on many levels is not a magic elixir. I don't agree nitro is always equates to a thin finish, especially on acoustics. Nitro melts nitro. So with an all-nitro finish (without a blocker/barrier) subsequent coats re-melt prior coats often driving them further into the wood fibers. It's a soft finish but at the end of the process the soundboard can be much more saturated with finish than with a thinner poly finish that rides more on top of the wood. In other words, even a nitro finish that appears thin from the outside can have deep roots and greater dampening properties on a soundboard. A thin poly finish can be more responsive if applied right. 2 out of 5 steps on my guitars are UV cure.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: UV Curable Guitar Finish

One of the things about the SPDI UV top coat is that it sprays on much thinner than poly and hybrid products; so much so that it requires finishers - particularly thiose trained in automotive spraying - to adjust their technique. But from what I'm hearing here, that could actually be a good thing. Right?

I think so too... they just need to adapt their technique. I would WELCOME it as a new challenge, but we all know what happens when the old "we´ve always done it that way" adage starts getting thrown around in frantic defense of something archaic, especially in the guitar world.

Frank brings up numerous good points, too.