(Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

[Robert Delahunt]

All,

I wanted to start a vault-worthy thread on how to get a Stratocaster, and/or any other guitar with a similar tremolo bridge, to keep its tune even during heavy tremolo bar usage.

For this example, I'll use my Lite Ash Stratocaster as subject matter. I installed locking tuners and graphtech stringsaver saddles, but alas my guitar still detunes during tremolo use. Please help me by explaining why Jeff Beck can use his a lot yet stay in tune. My next step was going to be a graphite nut. I read that Clapton (and maybe some others) used 5 springs on their tremolos.

For what it's worth, my Showmaster has locking tuners, a stock graphite nut, and I put string saver saddles on it, yet it still detunes a bit (though not as much) during heavy tremolo use, which is why I'm now sort of puzzled.

Anyways, I wanted this to be vault worthy so that others and I would not have to sort through a bunch of threads. I tried reading several books on the subject of Stratocaster setup, and nut cutting wasn't really mentioned, but they did say that it's important to have a nice one.

I also did not want to pick through internet websites, per se, because I figured the wealth of knowledge here would be greater, but I'm going to do that as well. Thanks!

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

JB has a 2-point bridge, an LSR roller nut, and Sperzels. That's a lot of it. Clapton's trem is blocked, FWIW, so that helps keep his in tune

Your nut is likely the culprit. I had an MIM Deluxe Strat that had trem issues. I started using the Fender Bullet strings, and that helped, but I did some nut filing, and that did it. I'm guessing the nut, and perhaps the string tree, is the culprit in your case.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

IT'S ALL IN THE SET UP!!!

I use a standard 6 hole tremolo, 3 springs, vintage style kluson tuners and a plain old bone nut...I don't even bother with nut sauce or other such help...

If you do a good set up on the guitar in question, make sure the nut is cut in such a way to NOT snag the strings on the back to a "rest' positionand keep the saddles free of burs and any other obstructions they can be VERY stable tremolos...

Jeff Beck used a standard vintage set up up until around Guitar Shop (and still does from time to time) and used the snot out of a tremolo, EVH used a vintage trem set up on the forst Van Halen album and that man defined tremolo abuse, SRV used his vintage trem set ups quite a bit as did Jimi Hendrix...IT CAN BE DONE!!!

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

JB has a 2-point bridge, an LSR roller nut, and Sperzels. That's a lot of it.

Jeff used a Strat off and on from Beck Ola until GUitar Shop with NO roller nuts, NO 2 point tremolos, and NO locking keys to GREAT effect...it's all in learning how to use a tremolo and learning how to set it up...

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

Mostly I find the issue is that the string binds at the nut.

First step is to make sure that it is cut right. Make sure it's even and doesn't pinch or toe-in.

The second is to use Tri-Flow on the nut. Generally I'll take unwaxed dental floss and some water to clean out the gunk. After that I hose down a length of floss with Tri-Flow and run it through the cuts to lube them.

After that it's wipe off the excess and re-string. Abuse the trem all you want....

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

Jeff used a Strat off and on from Beck Ola until GUitar Shop with NO roller nuts, NO 2 point tremolos, and NO locking keys to GREAT effect...it's all in learning how to use a tremolo and learning how to set it up...

Good point.... I instantly thought of the JB Strats I've played, and how they stay in tune as well as a Floyd-setup.

I meant to stress more that it has to do with how the strings are wound around the keys, and how the nut is cut.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

Well...you just touched on something I left out because I woudl think it's standard practice and common knowledge however, in case it's not...

If you CAN'T or DON'T string the guitar preperly you will NEER get the trem to work well under even light useage...you can have NO slippage of the strings on the tuners...

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

It is pretty funny when you see somebody griping about how their Strat with 5 wraps of string around the post won't stay in tune

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

It is pretty funny when you see somebody griping about how their Strat with 5 wraps of string around the post won't stay in tune

LOL. Yeah that's why I got locking tuners. I love mine, and my Strat loves 'em too.

Mostly I find the issue is that the string binds at the nut.

First step is to make sure that it is cut right. Make sure it's even and doesn't pinch or toe-in.

The second is to use Tri-Flow on the nut. Generally I'll take unwaxed dental floss and some water to clean out the gunk. After that I hose down a length of floss with Tri-Flow and run it through the cuts to lube them.

After that it's wipe off the excess and re-string. Abuse the trem all you want....

Good point. I thought that might be the case, as this Lite Ash has an almost Squier looking plastic nut. I was planning on having a graphite one cut for it very soon.

I tried the same on my Showmaster tonight, however, and noticed that it doesn't go out of tune hardly, but when it does, it seems to be the low E and the G, especially the G. The nut was cut for stock 9s and I have 10s on it, does it have to be altered just for that small a string change?

 

[Gunny47]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

Step One: screw the 4 middle trem screws all the way down
Step Two: screw the 2 outside ones ALMOST all the way down, just a tiny tiny tiny bit away from the bottom
Step Three: Use more springs to get the bridge plate flush to the guitar (I use 4 and I'm in perfect tune).
Step Four: Nut sauce in all the moving parts (string tree, vibrato areas) including the nut (and you can sometimes put a razor through there).

I'm sure there are some other steps there when it comes to giving the guitar a perfect set up (Which is key here) but those 4 steps have done it for me. I don't float the tremolo (I dont really need to for what I use it for) and it stays in really good tune. Hope this helps.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

Step One: screw the 4 middle trem screws all the way down
Step Two: screw the 2 outside ones ALMOST all the way down, just a tiny tiny tiny bit away from the bottom
Step Three: Use more springs to get the bridge plate flush to the guitar (I use 4 and I'm in perfect tune).
Step Four: Nut sauce in all the moving parts (string tree, vibrato areas) including the nut (and you can sometimes put a razor through there).

I'm sure there are some other steps there when it comes to giving the guitar a perfect set up (Which is key here) but those 4 steps have done it for me. I don't float the tremolo (I dont really need to for what I use it for) and it stays in really good tune. Hope this helps.

Thats funny...my 4 middle screws are out farther than my outside 2...see, everybody does it different!

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

Thats funny...my 4 middle screws are out farther than my outside 2...see, everybody does it different!

That's how I setup vintage bridges. Screw'm all down all of the way, back the 2 E's off a 1/4 turn and the 4 middle a whole turn.

 

[WhoFan]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

i find the big pain in the butt with some of my 6 screw trems is the screw heads themself's get in the way of the trem if you tighten them right down.. those pan head screws get in the way and i've dented a few bodies on the bridges pivot point by tightening them too far down and trying to dive like EVH... that strat now has issues with the bridge never returning to the same neutal place... i have some work to do on that one...

most stock Fenders come floating with all 6 screws backed off a little bit so the heads are out of the way of the trem plate.... Ovtave Doctor once suggested to me to replace the 2 outside trem screws with countersunk head screws so you can tighten the outside screws down without too much restrictions from the screw heads... I have not found any screws with the same shank size yet..

I use vasoline on the 6 trem screws and sometimes in the nut.... i used some nut files to clean out the nut slots on my strat but it didn't work that well stopping strings from still getting caught up... i'll try some sandpaper under the string trick next and rub it back and forth to smothe out the slot some more...

restringing the tuning pegs is important.... i put one warp over the string hole on the post and about 1 1/2 wraps under.... this helps lock the string in place....

i still have not found a way to keep my strats in tune as good as Pete Townshend does.... his nice Custom Shop strats have the 2 post Fishman Bridges and Sperzels.... looks like a bone nut on them as well... his trems are floating and he bangs away on that bar like a floyd sometimes thru 3 songs before he changes guitars!

 

[blueman335]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

SRV used his vintage trem set ups quite a bit as did Jimi Hendrix...IT CAN BE DONE!!!

Don't know about SRV, but Hendrix had constant problems keeping his Strats in tune when he used the vibrato bar, and that annoyed him to no end. In the studio he could retune & overdub, but in many of his live recordings he's got a high string or two out of tune (and probably cussing under his breath). Maybe Stevie did something different to his Strat.

 

[Gunny47]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

I think a lot of the problem is in the string tree as well. That's the main problem I had with mine. Now I just put a razor through the holes in the nut and simply bypassed the string tree and everything is perfect. I just played my strat for 3 hours straight, only tuned when I first picked up the guitar - I used the whammy bar heavily I was rocking out to Hendrix and doing some experimental Indian jazz stuff - and after the 3 hrs I was very much in tune. Wonderful thing

TGWIF - yea different strokes for different folks I guess and if it works for you thats good (hey I shouldnt be saying this, I've only had experience with strats for a couple months and youve been playing probably as long as I've been on this earth)! But anyway, I just put the 2 on the end slightly up (Es) because that seems to mimic the 2 point tremolo and I think I picked that up from this forum. I could not complain a bit about my strat and vintage tremolo, I won't trade it for anything!

 

[ErikH]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

If everybody would read the little booklet that is supposed to be given to you upon purchase OR look at the online resources at Fender.com, this would be seen. I've italicized the 6-screw section about how to set the screws.

(The below is copied and pasted from the Stratocaster setup guide on Fender.com)

TREMOLO

Stratocaster guitars can have four distinctive types of bridges. The most well-known bridge is the vintage-style "synchronized" tremolo. The other three are the American Series bridge, which is a modern-day two-pivot bridge; the non-tremolo hardtail bridge; and a locking tremolo, such as the American Deluxe or Floyd Rose® locking tremolos. If you have a non-tremolo "hardtail" bridge, proceed to "Intonation (Roughing it out)." If you have a locking tremolo bridge, click here.

First, remove the tremolo back cover. Check your tuning. For a vintage-style tremolo bridge, a great way to enhance its performance is to pull the bridge back flush with the body using the tremolo arm. Then loosen all six screws located at the front edge of the bridge plate, raising them so that they all measure approximately 1/16" (1.6 mm) above the top of the bridge plate. Then tighten the two outside screws back down until they're flush with the top of the bridge plate. The bridge will now pivot on the outside screws, leaving the four inside screws in place for bridge stability. For a two-pivot model such as the American Series bridge, use your tremolo arm to pull the bridge back flush with the body and adjust the two pivot screws to the point where the tremolo plate sits entirely flush at the body (not lifted at the front or back of the plate).

Allowing the bridge to float freely (no tension on the tremolo arm) using the claw screws in the tremolo cavity, adjust the bridge to your desired angle—Fender spec is a 1/8" (3.2 mm) gap at rear of bridge. You'll need to retune periodically to get the right balance between the strings and the springs. If you prefer a bridge flush to the body, adjust spring tension to equal string tension, while the bridge rests on the body (you may want to put an extra 1/2 turn to each claw screw to ensure that the bridge remains flush to the body during string bends). Caution: Do not over-tighten the springs, as this can put unnecessary tension on the arm during tremolo use. Finally, you may wish to apply a small dab of Chapstick® or Vaseline® at the pivot contact points of the bridge for very smooth operation.

 

[Gunny47]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

^^^ Hmm maybe I got it flipped.....Oh well, it freaking works extremely well!

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

IT'S ALL IN THE SET UP!!!

I use a standard 6 hole tremolo, 3 springs, vintage style kluson tuners and a plain old bone nut...I don't even bother with nut sauce or other such help...

I can only echo that.

i have a strat in my workshop I threw together myself from a WD body and some bits i salvaged from a MIM Strat that had been crushed by a falling wardrobe. It hardly ever needs tuning.

For what it's worth he is my take on the procedure.

It starts with the tuners. Use sealed gear tuners of the type made by Gotoh, Grover and Schaller. I favour Gotoh but they are all much the same.

These need to be fitted properly the stubs on the casing should be a light press fit into the headstock; not too tight, but just enough to take up any slack. The best way to ensure this is to shim the stubs. The old Budweiser can is the best source of shim stock as anyone who has read Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance can testify, although in reality any can will do the job. The locking ferrules should be tightened so that they grip the headstock firmly. Some cheaper tuners have ferrule washers that are dished; these tend to compress so swap them for Gotoh type flat washers if you can. If you have Fender tuners with two little studs for torque stabilisation plug the holes with a little stopping before fitting them so that they can't rotate even if the ferrule loosens.

One of the main causes of tuning instability with Strats is something I call snatchback. Many sealed gear tuners have two or three washers between the button and the casing stem which houses the worm. The innermost is a delrin washer which is designed to allow the button to rotate smoothly. Between this and the button is a spring washer curved in two dimensions. When the string is stretched the gear pulls the worm clockwise causing the button to compress the washer, however as soon as the string comes off-load, such as when a tremolo is depressed, the spring washer causes the button to pop out and pull the worm with it, causing the string to settle back at a higher pitch, so the button needs to be tightened sufficiently to compress this washer without causing the button to bind or crush the delrin washer.

The nut slots need to be cut so that they offer the minimum point of contact for the string while offering the lateral support needed to sustain resonance and I find that a slot with an approximately parabolic profile is ideal for this as it allows at least one gauge either side of the default choice to be fitted without needing to be recut. A little dry soap rubbed into the nut helps as well. It goes without saying that if you have any kind of soft plastic nut you should change it for a hard material.

The strings should obviously be stretched until they are stable.

The neck joint should be checked for security. If the screws are loose plug the holes in the neck with some walnut, holly or apple wood dowel. This will allow the screws to be tightened without stripping as the screws will be going into tough end grain rather than side grain. If the neck has to be shimmed use a coarse sandpaper as the shim as this will reduce the neck joint's slippage tendency.

If you have a pivot post bridge, check that the post bushes are tightly fitted as these can work loose. Wrap the threads of the posts with PTFE tape to reduce backlash (looseness) in the threads.

If you have the older "synchronised tremolo" with six screws replace at least the two outer screws with countersunk head variants of the standard ones. The standard screws need to be set with a gap of about 2mm between the underside of the screw head and the trem plate. This allows a little bit of room for the plate to move up and down on the shaft of the screws. Fitting screws with a flared head and keeping them as low as possible restricts the potential up-down movement of the bridge plate while permitting the full range of angular movement.

Lubricate all the screws with baby oil; do the same with all contact points and the trem return spring claw.

Seal all the height adjuster screws with beeswax. I do this by removing them, heating them gently on the end of an allen wrench then touching them to the beeswax so that it permeates the thread, then installing it in the saddle before it solidifies. Sometimes you need to touch a soldering iron to it afterwards to get the wax to flow again and seal the thread. It doesn't hurt to do it to the intonation adjustment screws either. Sometimes you need to replace the springs if they are not under sufficient compression.

Wrap the return springs in PTFE tape; this mainly stops them squeaking but anything that might possibly have an effect I'll throw into the pot...

That's about it.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

Oh, one other thing; use a good string wrap at the tuner; not the Nashville wrap as is often recommended by coffee-table books on guitar and *spits* Gibson, who know nothing about guitars, you need a simple "piano-tuner" wrap about 1/8 inch deep, just enough to cover the spindle eye and lock the free end against the top of the eye. Also hitch the free end back against the direction of rotation of the spindle to form a Z shape where the string goes through the eye. You must do it this way round as if you do it the opposite way the torque created by the strings tension will cause it to pull away from the edge of the eye and reduce the locking effect.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: (Vault) Preventing Fender Tremolo Detune

Allowing the bridge to float freely (no tension on the tremolo arm) using the claw screws in the tremolo cavity, adjust the bridge to your desired angle—Fender spec is a 1/8" (3.2 mm) gap at rear of bridge.

This is about the same thickness as the tremelo backplate so what you can do is take this off and put it between the bridge plate and the front of the guitar. you then tighten the springs up and tune the guitar; the plate will hold the bridge at the correct pitch. Once you have tuned the guitar slacken the springs in the back until the plate drops out and you will have a perfectly balanced bridge.

I don't know why so few people know this trick; Fender used to provide a little fibre shim just for this purpose and back in the sixties it was commonplace for roadies to place a coin between bridge and body to stabilise it while string changing...