Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

[SJ318]

Hi,
I just might be playing every now and again it turns out, so need a lighter body.
Many regulars know of my spinal problems, and also recent financial major set back, and that I have a "58-"59 PAF. My chambered alder strat is about 1 lb too much. Been over all this. My luthier needs my PAF. He is willing to go $600 in goods and services for trade. A chambered basswood body snow white color again. I told him 180.00 for MJ to copy my PAF. He said that he could get a dealership discount on the replacement pickup, BUT-there was no reason he couldn't do the same. I mentioned MJ's long and glorious history as a PU Maker & duplicator. THIS is where it gets sticky - and out of my league.
Although he gives MJ her props, he says there is no magic to it, he could do it or get it done very cheap through connections in the industry. 1. measure the wire gauge & type of each coil 2. measure the output of each coil. make them. 3. stick in various mags to find the the closest sound, visually check for roughcast, N/S polarity, and between A2's to A5's you'd have your sound. The spacer, the screw "mount" or whatever that thing is called the screws go through under the coil, are all obvious he says.
So not knowing, and without disrespecting anyone, is this a fair summation? If you have the parts and tools to do this, or is there some other magic besides experience he isn't saying, or I don't know.
Again, I love MJ and the Duncan Co. so no disrespect is intended. Gotta keep saying that.
Thanks in advance and this guy IS good at what I've seen him do.
SJB

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

The only "magic" in your PAf is its collectability status due to its vintage. Everything else is measurable and replicatable. Collectability is actually not about the utility or even the quality of a product - its about its relative scarcity. No pickup will make you a better player, so if there is other stuff you need, or would find more useful that owning a 50+ year old arrangement of wire and magnet, then dont lose any sleep about selling it.

 

[Andrew Lamprecht]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

What he said.

 

[revolution]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

I didn't think the vintage PAF had yet to be duplicated. I know many have come close, but still haven't hit the bullseye. If it had, it would be worth 60 bucks instead of 600. Keep it dude...you will regret any "copy" you get once it's gone.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

Thanks all, but,
That really wasn't my question. I know write too much, so maybe my question got lost in translation. Please read again, the question was what do you smart pickup people think of what my luthier said about "Duplicating" and it's relative simplicity as opposed to any secrets or "magic" that respected duplicators like MJ have knowledge of.
Thank you, and that's why the "No Disrespect" was added, as I respect MJ so much!
SJB

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

MJ could make or reproduce any pickup you can imagine. There is no magic. Only skill and experience.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

I don't know.....quite frankly if someone had a way of duplicating a PAF type pickup 'quickly and easily' like this guy says, then it would have been done maybe 20 or so years ago when that style came right back into vogue. There are some people who can't help but talk. This is easy and thats easy, but when it comes down to it there's always an excuse as to why the result never quite lived up to the hype. I would trust more the guy who is upfront about how hard it has been - and Revolution is correct......its no easy task as despite many trying the 'magic' has yet to be replicated.
Every winder in the business has started off repairing old pickups....thats how they get going. If all of these can't quite 'get it right' after doing exactly the same thing (and in the case of throbak, have the very same machines used at Gibson in the 50's) then what hope do you hold out for this guy??? And there's MUCH more to pickup winding than just the K rating and magnet. The whole wind characteristic is a 1/3 contributor to the final tone if not more. Plus I've yet to find a single magnet save perhaps for Throbak's that have actually managed to get anywhere close to the right composition.


This sort of optimism is great.....but I'd be wanting him to wind one first and hear it before I committed to any trade. Maybe a reading of the Throbak website can illustrate how much trouble Jon goes to in order to duplicate the various elements.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

I don't know.....quite frankly if someone had a way of duplicating a PAF type pickup 'quickly and easily' like this guy says, then it would have been done maybe 20 or so years ago when that style came right back into vogue. There are some people who can't help but talk. This is easy and thats easy, but when it comes down to it there's always an excuse as to why the result never quite lived up to the hype. I would trust more the guy who is upfront about how hard it has been - and Revolution is correct......its no easy task as despite many trying the 'magic' has yet to be replicated.
Every winder in the business has started off repairing old pickups....thats how they get going. If all of these can't quite 'get it right' after doing exactly the same thing (and in the case of throbak, have the very same machines used at Gibson in the 50's) then what hope do you hold out for this guy??? And there's MUCH more to pickup winding than just the K rating and magnet. The whole wind characteristic is a 1/3 contributor to the final tone if not more. Plus I've yet to find a single magnet save perhaps for Throbak's that have actually managed to get anywhere close to the right composition.


This sort of optimism is great.....but I'd be wanting him to wind one first and hear it before I committed to any trade. Maybe a reading of the Throbak website can illustrate how much trouble Jon goes to in order to duplicate the various elements.

+1.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

MJ could make or reproduce any pickup you can imagine. There is no magic. Only skill and experience.

This is ALL it takes.

MJ has both in bucketloads, and that's an understatement.

HTH,

 

[dominus]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

Are you planning on moving the pickup to the new guitar? It won't sound the same anyway.

Balance the guitar with the pickup, not the other way around.

 

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

Why does your luthier "need" your PAF?

 

[ginormous]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

Why does your luthier "need" your PAF?

This is a very good question.

 

[DreX]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

he says there is no magic to it, he could do it or get it done very cheap through connections in the industry. ... what do you smart pickup people think of what my luthier said about "Duplicating" and it's relative simplicity

Two things; first is that he might be trying to rip you off. He might well intend to give you $600 in goods/services and give you some garbage pickup that looks the part, and then tell you it cost him more than it really did.

The other thing, assuming he's on the level, a lot of people don't appreciate the nuances of pickups. Supposedly Hendrix and his guitar tech thought that differences between one pickup and the next was trivial. Long story short: if you think a pickup is just a pickup, then duplicating one will be cheap and easy. If subtlety matters to you, it's not so easy, and hence not so cheap. From the way you describe it, it sounds like your luthier whatever isn't especially particular about the magnet gauss, wind pattern and wind tension.

 

[DreX]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

Judging from ebay, you can probably do better than $600.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

yeah, id think you can do better than $600 is trade. and i doubt he can make a paf pup as good as mj.

i wind pups and i can make you a damn fine one, i still use the custom shop for some things. mostly humbuckers. duncan has the right winder, i dont.

i can make you two coils that look almost identical that sound different. its the pattern of the wind as much as anything else.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

The only thing magic about your pickup is its reputation. People think they are magic because they are told they are magic. The so-called "P.A.F. tone" you hear on old records comes down to production values, technique, and style more than anything else (i.e. PEOPLE and their artistic DECISIONS), not some magical piece of equipment. It ain't like you are gonna be able to do anything musically with it that you couldn't do without it. Also, it's best for that pickup to end up in the hands of someone who needs to restore an antique, not to just be sitting in a drawer. I would simply sell it for cash, and use the money for something useful. If trying to copy the pickup exactly makes you feel better, then do it. But personally, I'd just sell the ****er and get one of the score3s of varieties of P.A.F.-type pickups on the market, if you feel you must replace it for musical purposes. I would not have Joe Guitar Repair guy trade me ANYTHING for it.

 

[IMENATOR]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

the question was what do you smart pickup people think of what my luthier said about "Duplicating" and it's relative simplicity as opposed to any secrets or "magic" that respected duplicators like MJ have knowledge of

I have never order anything from custom shop but I as far as I have read so far it looks like the staff in custom shop has lots of experience doing replications for the pros and the man himself being in the same workshop means that people learned from one of the best in this busyness, that is a good diferenciator but also it would be good to know there are other poeple out there doing great work on that too, they may not be as much advertised. Afterall craftmanship can not be bottled and mass produced, it comes from overcoming challenges and being mastering the job after many years, that is not exclusive property of SD but you may need to get to know more about other companies to confirm they do also have that touch. I guess it's like looking for a doctor, you need to hear good things about him to visit him for the first time then be happy with the result to decide you wanna go again.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

You should be able to get a lot more than $600 for it. That he thinks he can get it from you for that is the first red flag that maybe he's not on the up and up.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

If he thinks it is so easy to make...


...why would he want yours?

IMO, it is easy enough for winders to get in the neighborhood with a pickup, and there are a few folks out there with the skills and experience that could do a good job. However, these folks are known by reputation and are not your run of the mill guitar maker/pickup winder. There is no magic to it, but there are decades of experience, knowledge, and a proven track record. You pay for those kinds of things.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Very Hard question to ask: NO DISRESPECT IS INTENDED.

OK, Here is the deal,
He needs the PAF to finish his Les Paul Three Pickup Custom. I am not using mine. Apparently his guitar is vintage but the pickups were lost along the way. He says he needs one more and has paid 500 bucks for both of the other ones. I need a basswood chambered body painted snow white like the last time. Alder was used and basswood be even better. (no need for guitar body discussion here, been done)
He says he could have MJ copy my pickup cheaper than I could by being a dealer and whatever connection he has with Duncan. I misspoke or said it wrong if I did say HE would personally do the making. Sorry for that confusion. My mistake.
I told him I was not comfortable with 5-600 bucks as many others sell similar items for more. However, I really value his work as a luthier, when it comes to bodies, paints, neck work, etc. I've seen his stuff.
BIG QUESTION! If I have MJ copy it, (and I asked this question from her but was not sure what she meant by her response, it sounded vague, but I did not want to press her.) I have read over and over again that A3's are a good choice for PAF's, and A4, A5, but mainly A3's. Joe Bonn. is certainly a demanding pro who, with MJ, went with an A3 to mimic his '59, so I wonder if I should say, please copy my pickup using an A3 magnet. I would, as always, mean no disrespect, but is that even reasonable to ask such a thing?
Please, I am all ears and eyes. He will use it, I am not using it. He also seems very set against going beyond 600 bucks.
I need your help on that BIG QUESTION. And I am not being flip at all. Maybe stupid, I don't know. But I gotta decide soon.
Steve Buffington ....ps. I have been invited to play again, not often, but I have about 3-4 years left according to my Dr. before playing live will no longer be an option. And I know for a fact that at home, in quite conditions, a decent Princeton Reverb Deluxe with any decent guitar sporting a Seth Lover sounds like the real thing - Like I always quote, Mike Bloomfield. I can live with that.