Vintage Mini Humbucker Part # 11101-09

ssmith432KC

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Is the Vintage Mini Humbucker wax potted ?

What is the difference in the Vintage mini Humbucker and the Antiquity II Mini in output and EQ.

Thanks
 
Welcome to the forum

The Antiquity is a unique sound. Somewhat single-coil, twangy sounding, a bit lower output than a typical humbucker. I haven't used the Vintage version, but they are the same construction and nearly the same DCR / specs. They are the original Firebird construction, so the potting is part of what's holding the pickup together.
 
Thanks for the reply.
I put together a Brent Mason type tele and thought the Antiquity II was what was in that guitar because of the pole pieces. It is OK, but then I found out that the neck pickup in the Fender Mason is the Vintage mini. I guess Fender took the SM-1N and put pole pieces in that guitar.

I know the Antiquity II is not wax potted, LOL because of my poor picking technique. The Antiquity II is nice but I was thinking about putting the SM-1N in if it is wax potted and if it would give me a somewhat little different tone. Think Julian Lage Nocturne or Vince Gills Take Your Memory if that helps. I would love it if the SM-1N was available to the public with the pole pieces.
 
Sorry, you were talking about the Antiquity II Mini-humbucker with pole pieces, i was thinking of the Antiquity II Firebird and Vintage (also types of mini-humbucker). Those a very different. If it's got pole pieces, it's not an SM-1. The Fender Brent Mason has a mini-hum with poles (not the Firebird type without) but It's not clear if it's really an Antiquity II, or potted. The "Vintage" description sounds like a misprint, or else it was a custom run for the BM tele? The Vintage Mini-humbucker on the Duncan line is a Firebird construction, which is a blade type, which is why it doesn't have pole pieces.

You could order the Antiquity II Mini-hum with pole pieces with light potting as a Shop Floor Custom through an authorized dealer. https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/latest-updates/seymour-duncan-shop-floor-custom-options
 
Again thanks so much for your input.

As I was doing some research after the fact I went to the Fender website and downloaded the specs on the Mason guitar and saw that the neck pickup did not specify if it was an Antiquity or one of the other mini humbuckers. I think it was in a premier guitar article they called it a vintage mini humbucker which when you use the SD search takes you to the SM-1.

Then I also found this post in a search here.

Got this E-mail from Tom (Fender Musical Instruments) 8 Dec 2023, 10:36 GMT

Hi Dennis
Thank you for your email, and I hope you're enjoying your Brent Mason Telecaster! The neck pickup in this model is the Seymour Duncan SM-1N. The version of the pickup in the Brent Mason was designed specifically for this guitar, as it has pole pieces where the original version of the SM-1N doesn't.
I hope this helps!

Many thanks,
Tom
Gear Advisor - Fender EMEA​

I also found that Fender wired the Mason using a 500K pot on the middle volume and a .05 cap which was different than what I did.

I think that was the other reason I wasn't getting the tone I was looking for when I blended in the middle pickup.

Still undecided on the direction I want to go. Do I just rewire everything with the 500K middle and the .05 cap instead of the 250K and .022. or do I also change the pickup to the SM-1N with the rewire?
 
I’m unsure how close the SM-1 would be to the one in the signature guitar. Adding pole pieces will absolutely change the sound, so it would not be true to the SM-1 design. The pole pieces are steel, so they increase the inductance, and the variation in construction will require different magnets as well.

Instead of swapping pickups, I’d change the blend pot to 500k. Too much resistive load on a mini-humbucker will reduce the brightness. (250k is higher load than 500k). So IMO, 500k seems like a good idea . This guitar has 3 control pots and they all add resistive load on whichever pickup is selected.


EDIT: If it was my project, I’d be tempted to change all 3 pots to 500k, then add a 510k fixed load resistor directly across the leads of the bridge pickup.
 
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In order to have pole pieces, it would have to be a completely different pickup construction. The SM-1 under that cover is a Firebird blade construction with blades completely encased in potting. You can't just add poles to it.

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I was looking to replace the covers on mine and was advised removing the cover could damage or destroy the pickup, though some people on the internet seem to have managed to get the covers off.

The Mason one looks like the regular "Antiquity II mini-humbucker" that is two pole bobbins with a magnet underneath, similar arrangement to regular-sized humbuckers. The difference is a 'Vintage' SM-1 would sound more Fendery and single-coil like, if that's what the Mason tele sounds like? Without hearing it, I couldn't tell what that neck pickup actually is.

This thread might be informative.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...676-firebird-pickup-in-a-tele-need-some-input
 
Again thanks so much for your input.

As I was doing some research after the fact I went to the Fender website and downloaded the specs on the Mason guitar and saw that the neck pickup did not specify if it was an Antiquity or one of the other mini humbuckers. I think it was in a premier guitar article they called it a vintage mini humbucker which when you use the SD search takes you to the SM-1.

Then I also found this post in a search here.

Got this E-mail from Tom (Fender Musical Instruments) 8 Dec 2023, 10:36 GMT

Hi Dennis
Thank you for your email, and I hope you're enjoying your Brent Mason Telecaster! The neck pickup in this model is the Seymour Duncan SM-1N. The version of the pickup in the Brent Mason was designed specifically for this guitar, as it has pole pieces where the original version of the SM-1N doesn't.
I hope this helps!

Many thanks,
Tom
Gear Advisor - Fender EMEA​

I also found that Fender wired the Mason using a 500K pot on the middle volume and a .05 cap which was different than what I did.

I think that was the other reason I wasn't getting the tone I was looking for when I blended in the middle pickup.

Still undecided on the direction I want to go. Do I just rewire everything with the 500K middle and the .05 cap instead of the 250K and .022. or do I also change the pickup to the SM-1N with the rewire?

To comment the sentence that I've put in bold letters: a SM1N with pole pieces IS most probably the same thing than an Antiquity II mini-hum, as Beau' said above...

Of course, Fender might have put a vertical magnet in the "slugs" coil, 6 mini-screw poles in the other coil and an horizontal steel plate under both... but it would be a non-typical design that I wouldn't expect in this case (only idiots like me build odd pickups like that, as I've done it not later than this afternoon. :-P)

Anyway: 500k pots are logical with mini-hums hosting screw poles. They have more inductance and a lower Q factor (= a flatter / rounder EQing) so they like high resistance controls.

... and a Firebird style pickup with two vertical magnets has a lower inductance + a higher Q factor so it's brighter / thinner... but it should sound largely like a mini-hum with poles once its resistive load lowered.

IOW, it's doable to make both designs sonically close to each others once the resistance of pots adapted, as implied above by Teleplayer.


For the record, I've a guitar with a mini-hum in neck position and a SM1 in bridge position. When I want both to sound like mini-hums, I just lower the tone pot of the bridge pickup. When I want both to sound more like Firebird PU's, I leave the tone control of the bridge unit full up, and I enable an home-made inductive filter in parallel with the neck PU (connected to the separate lug of the tone control, which is a no-load pot, and designed to give to the neck PU the same inductance than to the SM1). Works flawlessly for me.

Regarding the tone cap: I don't think it's critical in this case. But do what you want and be happy. :-)

Good luck in your tinkering.
 
Thanks for all of your help. That is great information. The tone did seem somewhat muddy and compressed so I'm thinking the 500k on the blend, with the information you have given would have helped liven that up some.

The tone on the neck was not bad just not quite what I was looking for . The bridge was great and with the tone rolled off a little I could get that Vince and Brent stuff pretty close. Of course I don't have there hands so there is that difference. I have another two pickup tele with a Julian Lage and 52T Ron Ellis in it and the bridge is pretty close to what I am getting on the Mason tele.

Again Thanks so much. I am just exploring the electronic side of things and lol in the first grade of how pots and caps and loads affect tone. Since I'm semi retired I dont have much else to do.
 
Thanks. Muddy might not have been the right term. Compressed ? I have never had or played a mini humbucker so I don't have much reference. Only sound samples on you tube. I do have an old ES335 and it was nowhere as sweet as my neck pickup in that guitar. Of course I wasn't expecting it to be.
 
I do have an old ES335 and it was nowhere as sweet as my neck pickup in that guitar.

Beside the difference of scale between Gibson and Fender instruments, mini-hums comb filter harmonics differently. Typing "1.115" then "1.56" in the "Width (inches)" box of the following page should illustrate what I mean.

https://till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html

By design, mini-hums with mini-screw poles are also more sensitive to eddy currents, making their resonant peak rounder albeit higher pitched than with a full-sized HB (eddy currents being also potentially what makes you feel the sound as "compressed"). Hence a slightly darker high range.
The Firebird design compensates that by using two vertical magnets which make it closer to a single coil, with a narrower and pointier resonant peak, less affected by eddy currents...

FWIW - tech rambling from an old fart. :-P
 
I like both mini humbuckers and firebird pickups in the neck position. But I believe the actual technical term is firebirds are more gooder :naughty:.
 

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Beside the difference of scale between Gibson and Fender instruments, mini-hums comb filter harmonics differently. Typing "1.115" then "1.56" in the "Width (inches)" box of the following page should illustrate what I mean.

https://till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html

By design, mini-hums with mini-screw poles are also more sensitive to eddy currents, making their resonant peak rounder albeit higher pitched than with a full-sized HB (eddy currents being also potentially what makes you feel the sound as "compressed"). Hence a slightly darker high range.
The Firebird design compensates that by using two vertical magnets which make it closer to a single coil, with a narrower and pointier resonant peak, less affected by eddy currents...

FWIW - tech rambling from an old fart. :-P

Thanks . This is great info.
 
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