Vitamin Q 0.022

[Big Flannel]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

I don't know if I'm more surprised that you thought to crush a capacitor with your fingers, or that you would consider it's ability to resist crushing an important indicator of quality.

The way I see it, caps are alot like tires. Cheap tires may get you where you need to go, but if you have the money to spend there is no reason not to buy tires with better tread that are higher mileage.

You know what I mean?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Some people believe the dielectric type makes a difference the human ear can detect, some believe it doesn't, but ultimately one side must right and the other must be wrong, we just don't know who is right and who is wrong at thus juncture.

No that is a totally false statement. When the first wax reel music players came out, people said they were shocked because they were so realistic it was like the person was in the room with them. If you listened to them today, you would disagree, and neither of you would be wrong. It is based on the hardware on your head and the software in between. It's relative.

I am one of those who has done the listening tests, and without the bias toward expense. In fact, you could argue that I would have been listening to justify the lower cost capacitors for use in OEM manufacturing. Now the reality is I listen with no bias, always. But that's not important.

I have heard a difference, unrelated to slight value shifts. How do I know? Because you can test on either side of the part and see if the behavioral shift follows the dielectric or the value. In other words, get three PIO caps, .022 dead on tolerance, and one on either side of tolerance by a bit. Then get a ceramic disc that is dead on to the target .022 PIO. Listen to the control against all three PIO variables and you'll hear (or not hear) the difference between the two that are dead on target. To truly understand it is a longer experiment, but I can tell you that I can hear the differences, and feel the differences across the dynamic range, the attack, etc.

If someone else, for the life of them, with their ears pressed up against the amp can NOT hear the difference, it doesn't make my statement false. It means it is beyond their ability to hear and I trust their honesty in that. Suffice it to say, if a graph or chart plots the two as identical, I couldn't care less, because it would just mean they haven't created the right kind of test. It's not just frequency response, there can be differences in phase linearity and the transient response that their test is not picking up. The audio exercise, and especially music creation that includes a bio-feedback loop to the human being is not (and never is) just a frequency response curve.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

This is funny, because a) you're criticizing my having bought a Seymour Duncan product b) unlike capacitors, it's a unique item, and c) I even stated it was an exceptional circumstance.

Yeah it sure is. :haha:
A unique item; It's an overblown fuzz box /clone basically.

I'm not critisizing, that's your interpretation.

 

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Yeah it sure is. :haha:
A unique item; It's an overblown fuzz box /clone basically..

OK, what's it a clone of?

 

[Big Flannel]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

OK, what's it a clone of?

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

OK, what's it a clone of?

Yes, it uses the same chip as found in the 808 - the 4558.

That's TS808

 

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

No that is a totally false statement. When the first wax reel music players came out, people said they were shocked because they were so realistic it was like the person was in the room with them. If you listened to them today, you would disagree, and neither of you would be wrong. It is based on the hardware on your head and the software in between. It's relative.

That would be a subjective assessment, though, because you're referencing the thing which would detect the phenomenon, a human being and their ears, and not the phenomenon itself. Whether there actually is a real difference or not, without respect to our ability to detect and/or hear it, is objectively either true or false. Like... if a tree falls in the forest, it does in fact make a sound, even if nobody is around to hear it.

... it would just mean they haven't created the right kind of test. It's not just frequency response, there can be differences in phase linearity and the transient response that their test is not picking up.

That's why I make no claims to certainty. I'm aware that typical response curve graphs doesn't account for time and variable input amplitude, which is also true when measuring the response of pickups.

It's actually not the response curve graphs that makes me lean towards believing there not being a perceptible difference, but the lack of identifiable reasons for why there should be a difference. I could take people who say they hear a difference on their word, but I can't expect than anyone else to, I can't treat personal testimony it as though were the same as fact.

 

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

That's TS808

A) there's more to an overdrive than an op amp

B) It actually uses an MC33178 https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...05-Overdrive&p=3676781&viewfull=1#post3676781

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

That would be a subjective assessment, though, because you're referencing the thing which would detect the phenomenon, a human being and their ears, and not the phenomenon itself. Whether there actually is a real difference or not, without respect to our ability to detect and/or hear it, is objectively either true or false.

Then by that logic, it is absolutely 100% true that there is a difference that (some) humans can hear, and the burden is on the test methods to quantify it. That is, unless you don't have faith in my sensory perception. I guess sometimes believing requires a little faith!

 

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Then by that logic, it is absolutely 100% true that there is a difference that (some) humans can hear, and the burden is on the test methods to quantify it. That is, unless you don't have faith in my sensory perception. I guess sometimes believing requires a little faith!

I'd like to set up a capacitor and pickup test that varies the amplitude and measures over time. It might now reveal anything, but if it does, that would really be something. I will be sad if I ever discover that PIO really is somehow better, because it will be hard to cram six of them in my veratone Strats.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

A) there's more to an overdrive than an op amp

B) It actually uses an MC33178 https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...05-Overdrive&p=3676781&viewfull=1#post3676781

Yes, I know.

805 Drive
Specifications
Distortion Circuitry: Glass diode, back-to-back stack

These combined with any op amp in that area, by virtue of electronic design rules , will not differ much from a TS808.

 

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

These combined with any op amp in that area, by virtue of electronic design rules , will not differ much from a TS808.

I have a Maxon OD808 as well as the SD 805. They don't sound alike. But even if you want to write that off as subjective, as is your right, there's the simple fact that the SD 805 has a three band EQ and the TS808, and most OD pedals, have a single tone knob.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

" In the beginning, there were fuzz boxes ", then there were Tube screamers and OverDrives.

It's an overblown fuzz box /clone basically..

 

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Your grasping at straws to catch me in a contradiction is, among other things, 100% off topic.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Y WE NOT USING TANTALUM

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Now the reality is I listen with no bias, always.

Wow. You really think that? Bias isn't a psychological defect or an affectation, it's how our minds work.

I have heard a difference, unrelated to slight value shifts. How do I know? Because you can test on either side of the part and see if the behavioral shift follows the dielectric or the value. In other words, get three PIO caps, .022 dead on tolerance, and one on either side of tolerance by a bit. Then get a ceramic disc that is dead on to the target .022 PIO. Listen to the control against all three PIO variables and you'll hear (or not hear) the difference between the two that are dead on target. To truly understand it is a longer experiment, but I can tell you that I can hear the differences, and feel the differences across the dynamic range, the attack, etc.

If someone else, for the life of them, with their ears pressed up against the amp can NOT hear the difference, it doesn't make my statement false. It means it is beyond their ability to hear and I trust their honesty in that. Suffice it to say, if a graph or chart plots the two as identical, I couldn't care less, because it would just mean they haven't created the right kind of test.

The right kind of test doesn't need measuring equipment or graphs or charts. All that's required is a double-blind ABX test. You have a box with switches, and the two capacitors connected invisibly behind it. Switch positions A and B choose between the two capacitors (anonymously). Switch position X selects either A or B, but the people in the room don't know which. You play your guitar, and switch between A and B and X as many times as you like, and then you say whether you think X is connected to A it B. Then the box is taken away and reconfigured, and the experiment is repeated again - lots of times.

By pure chance you would expect to get the right answer about 50% of the time. But if you were getting it right 90% of the time, that's very significant and you've proved that you can tell the difference. Whether that difference can be explained or measured, or whether one is "better", is irrelevant at that point - you have proved that the difference can be heard.

As yet, nobody has done this. It's a shame, because it would settle a lot of arguments if they did get that proof.

Thank you, though, for actually engaging with DreX's points. Some people here are using thinly-veiled ad hominem attacks, strawmen and sarcasm, never once addressing the actual point, and seem to think they're "winning" the argument.

Everyone: DreX has not said that you are not allowed to hold your opinion, so stop arguing that you are. We all already know that. But if my opinion was that a tone control turned down to 0 sounds the same with a 0.022uF cap or a 0.047uF cap, I'm sure that while you'd respect my right to hold that opinion, you'd still tell me that it was wrong.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Your grasping at straws to catch me in a contradiction is, among other things, 100% off topic.

Exactly. I'd love to see where the argument is going: "DreX bought an 805; [fill this bit in later]; therefore, PIO caps sound better than ceramic caps".

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Y WE NOT USING TANTALUM

I don't know if it's still going on, but people were being murdered and forced into slavery to get Tantalum out of the ground. I saw a documentary years ago about a tiny African country where the only (relatively) profitable activity was digging up Tantalum that happened to be present on their land. Armed men from a neighbouring country moved in and forced the miners to bring the Tantalum up and then the interlopers would take it. Any who refused were killed.

The same thing happens somewhere else where they have deposits of whichever mineral it is that is used to make mobile phones vibrate when they ring.

So yeah, out in the remote places and jungles, people are being murdered for some of these materials. I remember being very glad that Tantalum caps are not used in tube equipment. The very few times i've had to buy them for low-voltage items like pedals, I have done so with trepidation.

 

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

The right kind of test doesn't need measuring equipment or graphs or charts. All that's required is a double-blind ABX test. You have a box with switches, and the two capacitors connected invisibly behind it. Switch positions A and B choose between the two capacitors (anonymously). Switch position X selects either A or B, but the people in the room don't know which. You play your guitar, and switch between A and B and X as many times as you like, and then you say whether you think X is connected to A it B. Then the box is taken away and reconfigured, and the experiment is repeated again - lots of times.

By pure chance you would expect to get the right answer about 50% of the time. But if you were getting it right 90% of the time, that's very significant and you've proved that you can tell the difference. Whether that difference can be explained or measured, or whether one is "better", is irrelevant at that point - you have proved that the difference can be heard.

A couple things; as noted, this only tests whether the difference is perceptible (which admittedly is all that really matters), and not whether there is a true electrical difference. Audiophiles like to believe they hear better than the average person, and I'd agree that you do hear more when you are aware of what you're listening for and hear it often, as with wine tasting. So if there is in fact an electrical difference, and an audiophile claims they do hear it, it's hard to prove they can't, unless we discover the differences occur at 30kHz, then we can say, "sorry friend, you don't hear that."

The other thing is that I'd expect the test subjects to actually play the guitar in case it difference is one of input response. Like with pickups, often the difference is more felt than heard, because only the person plucking the guitar is aware of difference in how his interaction with the guitar relates to what is being heard.

As yet, nobody has done this. It's a shame, because it would settle a lot of arguments if they did get that proof.

There are YouTube videos of A/B comparisons, but they'll never make everybody happy.

But if my opinion was that a tone control turned down to 0 sounds the same with a 0.022uF cap or a 0.047uF cap, I'm sure that while you'd respect my right to hold that opinion, you'd still tell me that it was wrong.

That's also true of the argument (to paraphrase) "if spending money on X makes a person happy, then the expense is valid". I'd like to see someone tell that to a CPA.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

I don't know if it's still going on, but people were being murdered and forced into slavery to get Tantalum out of the ground. I saw a documentary years ago about a tiny African country where the only (relatively) profitable activity was digging up Tantalum that happened to be present on their land. Armed men from a neighbouring country moved in and forced the miners to bring the Tantalum up and then the interlopers would take it. Any who refused were killed.

The same thing happens somewhere else where they have deposits of whichever mineral it is that is used to make mobile phones vibrate when they ring.

So yeah, out in the remote places and jungles, people are being murdered for some of these materials. I remember being very glad that Tantalum caps are not used in tube equipment. The very few times i've had to buy them for low-voltage items like pedals, I have done so with trepidation.

TANX 4 BUMMIG MI OUT KRUSPY