Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

[HealthyNormal]

When can/should you use a 500K vs. a 250K volume pot? Like what's the difference on volume?

I kinda get how the tone knob would work on 250K and 500K, like where 250K is better for single coils because the latter would brighten it up wayyy too much, while the 250K holds back a humbucker I guess. Where does the volume control's number come in though in all of this?

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

Gibson used 500K pots in all of the 50's & 60's Les Pauls, ES-335, SG's, etc. http://www.doctorvintage.com/electrics/gib_electricals.html

I have two guitars with similar humbucking pickups.

One has a 300K volume pot and 500K tone pot.

The other has a 500K volume pot and 500K tone pot.

The guitar with the 500K volume pot and 500K tone pot is both higher in output (louder) and has more highs. The guitar with the 300K volume pot is both lower in output (quieter) and has less treble than the other.

Even when the guitar's volume control and tone control are on "10", some of the pickup's output signal and treble will leak through it and escape the audio path. More signal will leak through a 250K or 300K pot then will leak through a 500K pot because the 500K has more resistance and resists the signal from leaking through it.

If your pots are higher in value, 500K for example, they will have more resistance and resist the pickup's output from leaking through the pot and escaping the audio path and going back into the planet earth (ground). Instead, more signal will go into your amplifier and be produced as music.

See?

Generally speaking, very bright pickups like Strat and Tele single coils sound "better" with 250K pots as some of the treble bleeds through the 250K pots even when they are "10" and never makes it to your amp. The result is a warmer tone.

And generally speaking, warmer pickups like most paf style humbuckers and modern hot humbuckers sound "better" with 500K pots as very little of the treble bleeds through the 500K pots when they are on "10". The result is that treble is retained and not lost, which is "good" because humbuckers don't have much treble compared to single coils.

But some players, who for whatever reason prefer to throw away the little bit of edge to the treble that a humbucker has, prefer using 250K pots with humbuckers.

I don't.

Lew

 

[blueman335]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

But some players, who for whatever reason prefer to throw away the little bit of edge to the treble that a humbucker has, prefer using 250K pots with humbuckers.

I don't.

Lew

"Throw away?" Oh come on, it's not that bad. My ears are sensitive to treble. I just can't handle bridge PU's with 500K's, HB's or P-90's. It's painful. It's annoying. I still get plenty of bite & edge with 250K's. Maybe it's my beveled picks, maybe it's in my fingers. Then too, you're mainly a neck HB guy who loves A2's. I'm coming from a whole different place; a bridge PU guy who prefers A5's. Bright PU position, bright magnet; some of us don't want to pile on even more treble with bright pots too. I don't know, does it mean we're reckless fools? Maybe. But my ears don't hurt.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

Actually, when it comes to neck pickups I'd rather play my Strat neck pickup. Alnico 5 Strat single coils get the neck pickup tone I'm looking for. And I tend to solo on the neck pickup of my Strat more than the bridge pickup because I don't really love any Strat bridge pickups (even the Duncan Custom Shop alnico 2 bridge pickup I use in my Strat) as much as a good paf style style humbucker. I do like Duncan Custom Shop alnico 2 Tele Hot bridge pickups and have one in my favorite Strat - it's thicker and middier sounding.

I love the tone of a good bridge humbucker. When I play my guitars with humbuckers it's because I want that paf bridge humbucker tone for soloing.

So you got me all wrong.

As for piling on the treble by using 500K pots that's ridiculous.

For one thing 500K pots don't add any treble - all they do is prevent some of its loss.

For another, 500K pots with humbuckers is the norm and the tone all of us grew up listening to and that inspired many of us to pick up a guitar in the first place. Those vintage 50's Les Pauls we're all so obsessed with getting the tone of had 500K pots in them. Not 250K.

In other words, when you listen to those old recordings of Eric Clapton, Mike Bloomfield, Peter Green, Billy Gibbons, and others playing late 50's Les Pauls, you're hearing the tone of Gibson humbuckers and 500K pots.

I've been playing almost fifty years. I can shape a nice full tone with my hands on both acoustic and electric guitar, and I like to hear that little bit of sparkle on top.

And no one has ever told me my tone was harsh or to bright or hurt their ears - although, like all of us who have gigged professionally, I've been guilty of playing to loud.

Here's a good link to a document about vintage Gibson guitars and volume and tone pots and other things of interest: http://www.doctorvintage.com/electrics/gib_electricals.html

 

[jeremy]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

i think it all comes down to taste. some people like more high end content than others. others dont like the fact that you can hear you mistakes more clearly with alot of high end so they darken their sound (not directing this at you blueman, or anyone in particular but i know plenty of people that dont like to be that exposed)

in the last epi les paul i had i had a 59 set with 500k pots and it kicked all sorts of ass.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

But your tastes are eccentric and personal and are not the tastes of most players, although there are some, in the minority, who would agree with you.

We're a small but dangerous crowd I have to say, and I'm leading this unwashed group of misfits in a grassroots movement to give bridge PU's lots of midrange and body, with a sensible amount of treble, so that they hit like sledgehammers. My guiding beacons are the British blues-rock guitarists from the late '60's and early '70's. Les Pauls & Plexi's. They may have had 500K's on everything back then, but we're not using the same amps & overdrive they did. Change one part of the formula & maybe something else should change too. Maybe we approach that goal in a different way (heaven forfend!), but all that matters is the end result. Doesn't matter whether you walk, run, or ride; just that you get to the destination. Rules may be broken along the way.

Two years ago A8's were a novelty magnet few people used, and almost no one was mixing different kinds of magnets in P-90's. I've used my subversive influence to promote those nefarious schemes on this forum. I've corrupted some weak-minded individuals to use 250K's (they say they like them, but what do they know!). God only knows what other treachery I'll get mired in. Since I'm not entirely thrilled with the tones of the average guitarist, I guess my tastes are a bit eccentric. I never was one to follow the crowd.

 

[firebirdV]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

For the sake of clarity, 250k do not increase mids or body at all. They only decrease highs, which is also attainable by turning down 500k potentiometers.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

For the sake of clarity, 250k do not increase mids or body at all. They only decrease highs, which is also attainable by turning down 500k potentiometers.

But, as Jeremy pointed out, probably 90% of guitarists don't use their tone controls. I want my PU's EQ'd & balanced together with the tone pots on '10.'

Agreed, 250K's don't add mids, but by shaving off some treble, mids become a bigger percentage of the EQ, and are more prominent. Some of us heretics want more mids than treble in our bridge PU's, and there's various ways to go about it. "Warm bridge, bright neck" is my motto.

 

[Got_tone?]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

When can/should you use a 500K vs. a 250K volume pot? Like what's the difference on volume?

I kinda get how the tone knob would work on 250K and 500K, like where 250K is better for single coils because the latter would brighten it up wayyy too much, while the 250K holds back a humbucker I guess. Where does the volume control's number come in though in all of this?

IMO, use 250k when a bridge p'up is too bright. This is ALL a matter of taste. Some ppl don't need it and some do. Both the C5 and JB were too bright for me in a LP. A 250k solved my problem.

IMO, your amp is also a part of this equation.

 

[firebirdV]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

But, as Jeremy pointed out, probably 90% of guitarists don't use their tone controls. I want my PU's EQ'd & balanced together with the tone pots on '10.'

Agreed, 250K's don't add mids, but by shaving off some treble, mids become a bigger percentage of the EQ, and are more prominent.

Yeah I know, but I am a stickler for precise language.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

I have two identical guitars with similar humbucking pickups.

One has a 300K volume pot and 500K tone pot.

The other has a 500K volume pot and 500K tone pot.

The guitar with the 300K volume pot is both lower in output (quieter) and has less treble than the other.

But some players, who for whatever reason prefer to throw away the little bit of edge to the treble that a humbucker has, prefer using 250K pots with humbuckers.

I don't.

Lew

That is the bottom line, IMO. Why would anyone want to throw away both output and harmonics by using 250K pots with a humbucker? I don't get it.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

That is the bottom line, IMO. Why would anyone want to throw away both output and harmonics by using 250K pots with a humbucker? I don't get it.

Most of us adjsut output with PU height, PU windings, and magnet selection. No need to rely on pot resistence for that. Tone is a matter of taste & some of us don't see shrill, piercing bridge PU's as particularly "harmonic." I like a more balanced EQ better; to me it sounds bigger and fuller. It covers a broader spectrum instead of being top heavy.

Don't forget, as you age, you first lose the ability to hear high frequencies. As you get older you hear more low end, and have the tendency to turn up the treble. Whether inhereted or from abuse in our younger days, some of us baby boomers are losing parts of our hearing range. Maybe some of us are 'treble-sensitive.'

As you shake your head in dismay, I apologize. But...we like our tones better. Sorry. Maybe our warm bridge tones allow occasional imperfections in our playing to be minimized, but who amongst us is a flawless player? Instead of using what I hear as the thin & tinny bridge PU's that a lot of players have, we have muscle & punch to ours, along with being able to slice through the mix. In all the bending & vibrato I do, I get much more sustain on the high strings by reducing treble & boosting midrange. Better all the way around.

 

[GoDrex]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

I like 500's with humbuckers - - but very often I find myself turning the guitar's volume down a hair to take off that edge. So maybe I'd like 250's? Maybe, but I like being able to get that edge when I want it. I feel like I need it for heavier stuff. Turning down to 9 or 8 really does give me a nice tone though.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

When can/should you use a 500K vs. a 250K volume pot?

IMO, use 250k when a bridge p'up is too bright. This is ALL a matter of taste. Some don't need it and some do. Both the C5 and JB were too bright for me in a LP. A 250k solved my problem.

IMO, your amp is also a part of this equation.

Right answer. Although using a 250K pot with a paf size humbucker does kill the upper harmonics as well as warm up a pickup that seems "too bright".

IMO, the vast majority of bridge humbuckers sound best with 500K. But a bright sounding JB is one that sometimes sounds "better" with a 250K volume pot.

Like what's the difference on volume?

You will lose some volume if you use your humbucker with 250K pots. As I said in my first post in this thread, I have two identical guitars with very similar humbuckers and one guitar has a 300K volume pot and the other a 500K volume pot.

The guitar with the 500K volume pot is noticeably louder and better sounding.

Using a 250K volume pot is like turning a 500K volume pot down to 250K. What happens when you turn your volume control down? :lmao:

 

[HealthyNormal]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

Sorry guys, I haven't been able to get back around to my threads in a few days Well, I guess to sum it up, I have an HSS Strat setup with a JB in the bridge and two stock single coils in the other two positions. I already have a 250K volume pot in, and the JB isn't wired to a tone pot. I've heard the JB tends to sound better with a 250K volume pot, looking at this thread and a few others. However, would it warm up my JB too much to wire it to the middle pup's tone pot and take the crunchy edge off the pickup? I was wanting to have a tone pot for that pickup, but I think I'll have to wait to put a high-output single coil or single coil sized humbucker in the neck or middle position to use a 500K pot for it.. Will a JB work well with a 250K volume/500K tone setup (i.e. less bright because of the volume pot, but still crunchy with the 500K tone pot)?

 

[Peter Crossley]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

I use 500K pots for Volume and 250 k pots for tone, humbuckers, A2 8.5k neck, A5 12K bridge.
I use a 10 uf cap on the tone and a 271pf treble bleed on the vol. (this maintains presence all the way down the volume range)

I like em..

99% of my customers like em..

but its all personal..

I find you still get bite, but with a more pronounced mid range..

but maybe I'm crazy...................

 

[blueman335]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

I use 500K pots for Volume and 250 k pots for tone, humbuckers, A2 8.5k neck, A5 12K bridge.
I use a 10 uf cap on the tone and a 271pf treble bleed on the vol. (this maintains presence all the way down the volume range)

I like em..

99% of my customers like em..

but its all personal..

I find you still get bite, but with a more pronounced mid range..

but maybe I'm crazy...................

And I bet with a 250K volume pot, that you'd still get some bite, and that the treble wouldn't all suddenly disappear. Or maybe things work differently in your part of the world, and treble drains down there from the northern hemisphere.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

It's less about tone guys and more about audio taper. For volume controls anyway, you get a smoother audio taper if you match the track resistance of the pot to the impedance of the pickup.

So, generally, 500k with humbuckers, 250k with single coils. If you've got a really hot single coil though, you might want to use a 500k.

Me, I can't really tell the difference with tone controls, and it's not because i'm not sensitive to high frequencies; I can still hear that pitch that only teenagers are supposed to be able to hear, and i'm 53 now.

Mind you, when I was down the hospital last year the nurse told me I had the body of a 25 year old. I told her to shut up or the cops would be digging my garden up...

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

So, generally, 500k with humbuckers, 250k with single coils. If you've got a really hot single coil though, you might want to use a 500k.

Me, I can't really tell the difference with tone controls, and it's not because i'm not sensitive to high frequencies; I can still hear that pitch that only teenagers are supposed to be able to hear, and i'm 53 now.

I did some experimenting recently with a JB in a Strat and I can hear the loss of treble with a 250K tone pot vs. a 500K tone pot. I moved the JB from a guitar with two 500K pots to a Strat with a 500K volume pot and a push/pull tone pot that I thought was 500K but turned out to be 250K. I heard the treble loss right away and couldn't figure it out at first. Then I finally opened up the guitar again and saw that the tone pot was 250K. Quite a difference - 250K tone removed quite a lot of treble bite from the JB.

Lew

 

[blueman335]

Re: Volume Pot 250K or 500K?

So, generally, 500k with humbuckers, 250k with single coils. If you've got a really hot single coil though, you might want to use a 500k.

Well, except for those of us that think it has more to do with bridge versus neck position, or if the PU's have a bright or dark magnet, or are in bright or dark-toned wood. To me, the "500K's for HB's, 250K's for SC's" is an outdated, sweeping generalization that doesn't take in account some important factors. There's a number of players that think bridge PAF's are pretty darn bright, and require dialing down the tone pot or using 250K's. Problem with dialing down the treble on your amp is that it often makes the neck PU too dark.

To the OP: The JB has an abundance of treble, that even two 250K's only slightly reduce. JB's were still too bright for me even then, until I put an A2 magnet in. Then the neighborhood dogs stopped howling. To my ears, 'crunch' isn't only about treble, you need some mids there too to get some body behind it.