Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

I have a 1986 Les Paul Custom Flametop that I bought in 1992.

I also recently bought a 2015 Les Paul Standard SR.

What compelled me to buy a new Les Paul when I already have one? The 2015 was built sooooo much better and stays in tune much better than the 1986, the fret work is as good as my PRS and feels like a Mercedes or Rolex compared to older Les Pauls I've played in stores

I am genuinely curious to see every Gibson that is described as having excellent factory fret work. Will you please post closeup pictures of the frets?
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Gibson is famous for their frets ...

images


OK, that may be a bit extreme but you get the idea.

;)
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

^ That is pretty much their frets' profile; it isn't an exaggeration. In fact, I think the school bus has more crown and definitely has a smoother, larger roundover.
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

I don't think the relative dimensions (especially the width) between the bus and a fret would be equivalent enough to make an apples to apples comparison but it's good enough for illustrative purposes. :bigok:
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

^ Really, though, it's very close. The only thing that's off is the height of the bus. In that picture, if it was cropped a bit looser, so you could see more of the sides of the bus, it would be pretty much apples to apples. I've never heard the school bus comparison. It's really good, so thanks for posting it. Again, I think Gibson frets tend to be flatter across the top than the school bus...but otherwise it is so good!
 
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Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

I have a 2011 LP, it's a 57' RI. I bought it very lightly used. It still has the factory nib ends and hasn't had any work done, according to the prior owner. I find no need for any work to the frets and I love the feel. I am particular about my fret work.

I also have a 2013 Gary Moore LP Standard. It could use some slight filing on the nib corners (to make it perfect), but it's not causing any real feel problems or playability issues.

Most of my high end electrics have been USA made Dean Hardtail's.... although LP's are catching up. Back on point, I used to rave about the fret work, which was very good, but the fret ends were in places a tiny bit rough feeling, at times. Then I had one Hardtail that I purchased with some flat spots worn in a few spots, so I had them leveled, crowned, polished and the ends filed/rounded. HOLY COW. What a huge difference. The factory crowning on the others is actually good, but the fret ends all need work compared to the one I had done.

My point is, I know a good fret job now that I've had one, and my 57' RI is just fine. In a perfect world the crowning shape could be a bit better, but it's nowhere close to me feeling like I have to get in in now. I don't notice the fret ends when I play it, even compared to my one now perfect fret job. As I said prior, the Gary Moore could use a small bit of nibs end work, but it's not pressing either.

When you pay $2K plus for a used Les Paul and over $3k for a Standard yes, the fret work SHOULD be perfect. In my experience, the deficiencies I've experienced are not significant enough for me to proclaim all of their fret work crap or to deter me from buying others in the future. Most LP owners will spend more money changing pickups, hardware and electronics than the $125 or so cost of a full fret job. If I have to have a fret polishing and fret end touch up, I consider that part of customizing the guitar to my preferences.

Now, if the frets are like square speed bumps and the fret ends cut your fingers.... then we have a problem. I haven't encountered a LP like that, but to be fair I haven't played hundreds of them either. However, a few dozed played over a 10 year period is a pretty broad time period of review.
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Mine are a bit school bus

Thank you for posting. Can't tell anything from the last two blurry pix, but based on the first one, there it is. Though that is definitely not the worst example I've seen, those are the classic Gibson frets of the bulk of the Henry J. years, like what I'm talking about. That's a lazy, incomplete fret dressing right there. Not crowned deeply enough, and with the end dressing done in one dimension only – look how sharp the edges of the bevel are. There should be *no* right angles on the frets, except at the *very* bottoms of the ends, where they meet the fretboard (since you can't get an end dressing file 100% of the way down to the board). Crowning to the proper depth takes care of most of that, and end dressing takes care of the rest. A final sand and polish, and the ends should look *almost* like end ends of pill capsules that have been sliced in half lengthwise.

I'm sure you can play it, and I'm sure that it's better than a lot of other guitars you've played. But I guaran-****in'-tee you it could be a lot finer if it was taken to a highly skilled tech to get those frets crowned, end dressed, and polished. Might pass without much mention on a $500 or $1,000 guitar, but at Gibson prices, the fine detail work like this should be done.
 
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Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

You guys know that Gibson is famous for the low-wide fret, right? The "fretless wonder" guitar....

This whole ultra crown/jumbo thing is another approach, as as are skinny/narrow ones.

Based on the version Its showed, looks like a classic somewhere in the middle move. Which of course, doesn't make either camp happy. But we all agree - the detail in the finish of all sorts of issues is just not what it should be at that price point.

Regardless of profile preferences, yes - Les Paul's should have smooth, even, smooth edged frets preriod
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Don't fear the Gibson

Be smart - play a bunch, they vary widely in spec as much as the odd fit and finish issue. Even 2 excellent ones can be quite different, they are most definitely not one size fits all.
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Mine are a bit school bus

I posted the bus roof photo just as an illustration of Gibsons "School Bus" fret crowns. I didn't make the term up. I thought it was a pretty widely known term. Probably more so on the Gibson forums. It's not the Plek machines because it goes back way before that. It's just the way that Gibson tends to crown the frets. Is it labor saving? Yeah. Is that why they do it that way? Probably, but who knows. If it sounds good and plays good it is good. Mine are similiar and they play great.
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Gibson is famous for their frets ...

images


OK, that may be a bit extreme but you get the idea.

;)

That’s not extreme...

My 2015 has low fretless wonder frets..

I missed higher frets so I tried out a few 2016’s, and they all had schoolbus frets- I liked the fret height better but the profile was uncomfortable
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Jerry has one with the really low frets that I think plays awesome
My Epiphone Florentine plays awesome
The Gibson and the Ehdwuld play awesome
The RG2 has taller Ibanez jumbo frets
That I had a hard time with , it would go out of tune if I gripped it like my acoustics
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Fretless wonder frets are *not* the wide and low ones used at times from the '60's through the '80's (I love those, by the way; they are on my '83 Custom, my '68 SG Standard, and my '68 ES-330). Those are huge frets by comparison.

Fretless wonder frets are even narrower than Fender wire in width. Old Fender wire is .078" wide and .040-something inch high to start. The wide, low Gibson wire is usually in the neighborhood of .095 to .105" wide (there was variation, but .100" is a good average) and .030-something inch high. Fretless wonder frets were under .070" wide, and they were dressed down to the .020's. They are so low that crowning them is pretty much impossible. Many were replaced fairly early in their lives with wider wire, either because they got divots and the frets didn't have enough meat on them to handle a fret dressing, or because players didn't like 'em. You still see them on old Gibsons, though. They even used that wire up into the '70's. (The older the LP, the more likely it is to have fretless wonder wire).

Fret wire made to the actual old fretless wonder dimensions is no longer produced. The closest you'll get is Saga Golden Gate FW-10, which is .063" wide by .028" high. It is made for fretwork on vintage folk instruments, like banjos, mandolins, etc.

Modern Gibson frets are Dunlop 6105/Jescar 55090 size (not sure which brand they actually use). They start out .090" wide by .055" tall: twice as tall as fretless wonder frets, and about 2/3 taller than the wide/low frets. These frets actually start out with a nice crown in their raw state, but Gibson flatten them during the leveling process, and heavily round the fret ends over. Then they only lightly re-crown them. Then then do only minor end dressing along the sides (something that should be done in order to blend the square corners left by the lateral roundover during leveling). This results in tall sides with a relatively square profile that easily catches the fingers, and fret ends that have inadequately softened square corners along the sides (visible in ehdwuld's and my photos earlier in the thread).

You can't dress a fret that tall as squarely as you can dress a lower fret, and still have it play ideally. Because of the height of these frets, they require a much more dramatic crown, and significantly more end dressing than lower frets, to feel smooth as can be. Again, you can play on them, and they might feel fine in the relative sense. But take them to have the fretwork finished properly, and there will be a world of difference. A thing about low frets is that the crowning and end dressing requirements are nowhere near as dramatic in order for them to feel good on the hand. Also, crappy as most people find fretless wonder frets to be for modern music, they were spec'd that way deliberately, and it took a ton of time and effort, and very precise craftsmanship to get them that way. They weren't done that way because a greedy and insane boss was breathing down their neck to bang out an unreasonable number of guitars in a day, after scaring off most of the best craftsmen in the company over a period of decades.
 
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Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

2011 Gibson CS 356 Koa

d2b2f25fe69ff9080740eccc1fcedb62.jpg
6bc81fcb43211949677c829a26c855f7.jpg


2017 Gibson CS 336 Mahogany

0e141b55122b4aa59e3124ee100cd8d0.jpg
b9adadd2922db12fc3145ed4203d8961.jpg
2a47593035c0afe864c56efd03021452.jpg


None have had any fret work to my knowledge. Both acquired this year and will be getting a fret doctor treatment and fret polish (done by me) in July. Both guitars feel fine. If anything, the Koa 356 plays effortless in comparison to a '69 SG Special that needs a refret badly and a '96 Squier neck that needs a polish.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk
 
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Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

And - a note of interest, Standards and Customs don't have fret ends as the binding is over them....
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

And - a note of interest, Standards and Customs don't have fret ends as the binding is over them....

Ends are covered by the "nibs" on my Traditional as well (2017).
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Nibs are finished just as squarely as metal fret ends; they have the same problems, and then some. There are good and bad things about the nibs. Bad: They must transition smoothly into the body of the fret. They often don't. See the pix of my Standard in this thread. You could catch a fingernail (or a string) on that transition fron metal to plastic. Good: being plastic, they are *much* easier to round over and smooth into the body of the fret. No elbow grease required. Of course, this makes the laziness of the end shaping even more egregious.

I am glad someone posted a CS guitar or two, so we can see the difference in quality between that and standard production line fretwork. Same fret stock to start, but it is dressed lower, with much smoother end dressing, and a different nib style (closer to old Gibsons, on which the nib doesn't fully take the place of the fret end). This is exactly why I was specific with the phrase "standard production line," when I said I had not seen proper fretwork in the 20 years I have been trying out new Gibsons in stores. CS (Custom/Art/Historic) models are notably better in terms of fretwork. As mentioned a few posts ago, a lot of that is because the frets are usually filed lower to start, making the crowning and end dressing requirements less severe.
 
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Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

I don't know about the nibs but those frets on the CS guitar photos posted don't look much different than whats on my Traditional. In fact, they may be more "school bus" than my Trad. But, I'm not saying that the CS guitars aren't better instruments. Just that, from those two photos at least, I'm not seeing anything of the fretwork itself that appears superior.
 
Re: Was thinking of buying a Les Paul Gibson but... they only sell the new models?

Fretless wonder frets are *not* the wide and low ones used at times from the '60's through the '80's (I love those, by the way; they are on my '83 Custom, my '68 SG Standard, and my '68 ES-330). Those are huge frets by comparison.

Fretless wonder frets are even narrower than Fender wire in width. Old Fender wire is .078" wide and .040-something inch high to start. The wide, low Gibson wire is usually in the neighborhood of .095 to .105" wide (there was variation, but .100" is a good average) and .030-something inch high. Fretless wonder frets were under .070" wide, and they were dressed down to the .020's. They are so low that crowning them is pretty much impossible. Many were replaced fairly early in their lives with wider wire, either because they got divots and the frets didn't have enough meat on them to handle a fret dressing, or because players didn't like 'em. You still see them on old Gibsons, though. They even used that wire up into the '70's. (The older the LP, the more likely it is to have fretless wonder wire).

Fret wire made to the actual old fretless wonder dimensions is no longer produced. The closest you'll get is Saga Golden Gate FW-10, which is .063" wide by .028" high. It is made for fretwork on vintage folk instruments, like banjos, mandolins, etc.

Modern Gibson frets are Dunlop 6105/Jescar 55090 size (not sure which brand they actually use). They start out .090" wide by .055" tall: twice as tall as fretless wonder frets, and about 2/3 taller than the wide/low frets. These frets actually start out with a nice crown in their raw state, but Gibson flatten them during the leveling process, and heavily round the fret ends over. Then they only lightly re-crown them. Then then do only minor end dressing along the sides (something that should be done in order to blend the square corners left by the lateral roundover during leveling). This results in tall sides with a relatively square profile that easily catches the fingers, and fret ends that have inadequately softened square corners along the sides (visible in ehdwuld's and my photos earlier in the thread).

You can't dress a fret that tall as squarely as you can dress a lower fret, and still have it play ideally. Because of the height of these frets, they require a much more dramatic crown, and significantly more end dressing than lower frets, to feel smooth as can be. Again, you can play on them, and they might feel fine in the relative sense. But take them to have the fretwork finished properly, and there will be a world of difference. A thing about low frets is that the crowning and end dressing requirements are nowhere near as dramatic in order for them to feel good on the hand. Also, crappy as most people find fretless wonder frets to be for modern music, they were spec'd that way deliberately, and it took a ton of time and effort, and very precise craftsmanship to get them that way. They weren't done that way because a greedy and insane boss was breathing down their neck to bang out an unreasonable number of guitars in a day, after scaring off most of the best craftsmen in the company over a period of decades.

Do you know of anywhere that sells stainless steel "Fretless Wonder" frets. I have always loved them, but I fret to heavily for nickel silver frets of that height to last any significant time.
 
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