What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

[karpathion]

Ok, I'm using Fl studio 10. I'm micing my amp with a Sure 57. My interface is an M-Audio fasttrack. I have all the right drivers and such.

Why does my recording not sound like my amp?

You can stand right in front of this amp, and it sounds great, but as soon as you record it, it goes to ****.
The bottom end is muddy, The distorion fizzes like hell, and there is a swell/bloom, to every note. " It's like it has to build up to volume."

I have the levels well below clipping, a ton of bass dropped from the amps controlls, and the gain backed off a good bit from normal.

I've learned today that I have to compress the signal going in, but it doesn't fix the problem.

I can record clean tones that sound fantastic, just something happens when the gain goes up.

What am I missing?

 

[TheLivingDead]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Maybe find a sweet spot with the mic? It takes a bit of finessing.

What monitors are you using?

 

[karpathion]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Oh man, I have been all around this speaker with my mic. It seems to like it best right outside the cone.

I've always had this problem with high gain. Even when I was using multitrack tape, and digital work stations.

My monitors are kinda cheap, but they sound great with everything else. They are Alesis M1 320s.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Well, first:

- You say when you stand in front of your amp is sounds good. Then you mic the cone and it sounds bad. Part of the reason is that the mic is not where your ear is.

Try placing the mic right where it sounds good; a good ways back from the amp. Then retrack with the amp close mic'd, if you only have one mic.

Another trick is to record with less gain and multitrack.

Do you have much experience recording? Not to sound like a jerk, just curious.

 

[karpathion]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Well, first:

- You say when you stand in front of your amp is sounds good. Then you mic the cone and it sounds bad. Part of the reason is that the mic is not where your ear is.

Try placing the mic right where it sounds good; a good ways back from the amp. Then retrack with the amp close mic'd, if you only have one mic.

Another trick is to record with less gain and multitrack.

Do you have much experience recording? Not to sound like a jerk, just curious.

When I say stand in front, I mean my ear is right in front of the speaker, where I have the mic.
The sweet spot I've found is right outside of the cones diameter.

I'm gonna try backing the mic away a little more. I'll see what that does.

I have a bit of recording experience, mostly just bedroom tracking, but I have spent some time in a real studio. Those tracks sounded great!

If I where to post some clips, could someone maybe tell by ear what it is I'm doing wrong?

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

The thing is, there really IS not right or wrong. But if you post a clip, we may be able to steer you towards the sound you're hearing in your head.

 

[MojoMonster]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Ok, I'm using Fl studio 10.

Quick check.
Try another recording solution.
Reaper has a free-ish demo and there's always that good old standby, Audacity.

The bottom end is muddy, The distorion fizzes like hell, and there is a swell/bloom, to every note. " It's like it has to build up to volume."

It sounds like you're overwhelming something...
Go thru each component at a time.
Borrow a different mic.
Try a different sample rate.
Try a different input device.

Try backing the mic away from the speaker.

MM

 

[north]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

So many factors.. drop me a line if you're interested and I'll share some of the things I have learned about mixing high gain amps and getting great guitar tones on your tracks...I record and engineer all my Cd's.....

 

[karpathion]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Quick check.
Try another recording solution.
Reaper has a free-ish demo and there's always that good old standby, Audacity.


It sounds like you're overwhelming something...
Go thru each component at a time.
Borrow a different mic.
Try a different sample rate.
Try a different input device.

Try backing the mic away from the speaker.

MM

I may be wrong ,but from what I understand, Edison is used in most of the software out there. This uses Edison as well.

What else is out there?

 

[DankStar]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Any way you can record to tape to rule out the interface and/or FL causing issues? You don't need a compressor on the signal going in, you can't remove it. use it when mixing (if necessary).

 

[karpathion]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Any way you can record to tape to rule out the interface and/or FL causing issues? You don't need a compressor on the signal going in, you can't remove it. use it when mixing (if necessary).

I have a Vestax Mr-66 that I have used for years. I can try it on that to see, but I've always had this same problem.

I'm starting to think it's my ears. I'm used to playing in a 14x14 room with the volume jacked and the gain cookin'. Maybe I just need to lay off the open room jams and keep this in amp the closet " no pun intended," being mic'd for a while.

The only way I can think to put is, it's like playing a mesa Mark 4, wide open all the time. Then playing a 5 watt amp for a day. It just doesn't seem right.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

FL studio has a mastering limiter on by default when you start a new project, be sure to check the master FX insert and see if it needs to be turned off/removed.

 

[karpathion]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

FL studio has a mastering limiter on by default when you start a new project, be sure to check the master FX insert and see if it needs to be turned off/removed.

I take it off before every project I start.

Seems like this, Soundgoodizer, is helping a good bit, But still sounds like I'm playing through a SS Crate amp from way back.

I have the ass end tightened up alot, but I still can't get rid of this fizz.

 

[LatsMcGee]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

You said you are rolling off the bass on the eq, are you rolling off a bit of the treble and gain as well; to me too much treble plus too much gain equals fizz.....

 

[karpathion]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

You said you are rolling off the bass on the eq, are you rolling off a bit of the treble and gain as well; to me too much treble plus too much gain equals fizz.....

Too much treble is one thing you will never get from me. I like a low mid tone.

My amp setting is pretty neutral at the moment, everything is around noon.

I'll back 'em off a little and see what happens.

I'm open for anything at the moment.

 

[wahwah]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Most of the great gain sounds we have heard in recordings were not a single 57 close mic'ing a cabinet. Engineers will use the close 57 just for the nose and midrange poke. On their own, they usually sound pretty nasal and kinda fugly. The 57's tone will most often be mixed in with a U87 or similar condenser picking up the open room sound, and the better the room, the better the sound, which is part of what you're paying for in a decent studio. The 57 is a horribly inaccurate microphone, but it's great for getting the nose that will help the track cut in a mix. The body of the tone will be the more distant room mic, or quite often a dedicated ribbon mic like the Royer 121. So you are hearing only one element of what makes up a good recorded tone.

If you want to use a single close mic to get an impression of your amp's tone, investigate the Heil PR-30. http://www.heilsound.com/pro/products/pr30/ It's a large diaphragm dynamic mic with the sonic characteristics of a ribbon mic, high SPL handling and a much flatter response than a 57. I introduced our live engineer to them, and his production company ended up becoming the national distributor for their entire line of microphones. You'll never use a 57 ever again.




Cheers............................................ wahwah

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Most of the great gain sounds we have heard in recordings were not a single 57 close mic'ing a cabinet. Engineers will use the close 57 just for the nose and midrange poke. On their own, they usually sound pretty nasal and kinda fugly. The 57's tone will most often be mixed in with a U87 or similar condenser picking up the open room sound, and the better the room, the better the sound, which is part of what you're paying for in a decent studio. The 57 is a horribly inaccurate microphone, but it's great for getting the nose that will help the track cut in a mix. The body of the tone will be the more distant room mic, or quite often a dedicated ribbon mic like the Royer 121. So you are hearing only one element of what makes up a good recorded tone.

If you want to use a single close mic to get an impression of your amp's tone, investigate the Heil PR-30. http://www.heilsound.com/pro/products/pr30/ It's a large diaphragm dynamic mic with the sonic characteristics of a ribbon mic, high SPL handling and a much flatter response than a 57. I introduced our live engineer to them, and his production company ended up becoming the national distributor for their entire line of microphones. You'll never use a 57 ever again.




Cheers............................................ wahwah

Great tips.

Our engineer, who has gold and platinum records to his name, used an SM57 and an MD421 on our guitar amps, which were summed to one channel by the Neve board. The 57 gets the cutting mids and the 421 gets the girth.

For putting one mic on a cab I personally like the Sennheiser e609. It is fuller and more pleasant sounding than a 57, and has the added benefit of not requiring a stand live (it hangs from the cable).

 

[El Dunco]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

Most of the great gain sounds we have heard in recordings were not a single 57 close mic'ing a cabinet. Engineers will use the close 57 just for the nose and midrange poke. On their own, they usually sound pretty nasal and kinda fugly. The 57's tone will most often be mixed in with a U87 or similar condenser picking up the open room sound, and the better the room, the better the sound, which is part of what you're paying for in a decent studio. The 57 is a horribly inaccurate microphone, but it's great for getting the nose that will help the track cut in a mix. The body of the tone will be the more distant room mic, or quite often a dedicated ribbon mic like the Royer 121. So you are hearing only one element of what makes up a good recorded tone.

If you want to use a single close mic to get an impression of your amp's tone, investigate the Heil PR-30. http://www.heilsound.com/pro/products/pr30/ It's a large diaphragm dynamic mic with the sonic characteristics of a ribbon mic, high SPL handling and a much flatter response than a 57. I introduced our live engineer to them, and his production company ended up becoming the national distributor for their entire line of microphones. You'll never use a 57 ever again.




Cheers............................................ wahwah

I agree with this a hell of a lot. For my band's album, I used 3 mics for each guitar track at the very least. A 57 for the mentioned 'cut' a Senheiser e906 for a full direct sound and a condenser at the back of the room to catch the 'air'.

If you don't place the condenser properly, you might have some phase issues which can be fixed with the use of delays, but then you miss out on the huge sound you get from spreading the transients just right over the microphones.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

geez...now im gassing for a new mic! thanks wah!
All of wahs, and some other pointers here are valid tips.

anyway...to the OP..using the gear you have (assuming all you have is the one instrument mic)...you said that the edge of the cone was the best you coulkd do...ok....so do that, but back the mic off by maybe 2 feet and see how you go.

 

[wahwah]

Re: What am I doing wrong? High gain recording questions.

For putting one mic on a cab I personally like the Sennheiser e609. It is fuller and more pleasant sounding than a 57, and has the added benefit of not requiring a stand live (it hangs from the cable).

Very much a personal taste and specific application thing, but while the e609 is definitely a step up from a 57, it still has that 7dB spike @ around 4-5kHz, which may be exciting to ears that are used to hearing a 57, but to mine has always sounded glassy and overhyped. They may work well to add some openness to a dark sounding amp, but if you really love your amp tone, you wouldn't go adding 7dB @ 4kHz! The original MD 409 that these cheaper models (e609, e906) were loosely based on is a great microphone, but these budget versions make me cringe when I see them as part of a production company's mic kit. I hasten to repeat, personal taste only, and they are bound to be the right mic for some tasks. But I would still recommend any guitar player who has settled on their tone to give the Heil PR-30 a listen. It's the first time in my life that I have come back in from an amp room, sat between the monitors, and gone, "Yep, that's the sound of my amp."

Apart from using it live, I've taken the Heil to most of my recording sessions in the last couple of years, and if the vibe with the engineer seems ok, I will respectfully ask if he would be willing to try it in place of his usual close mic. Without fail, every time he is bringing up the mic mix, I will ask what he is using, and he will either say, "Mostly the Heil," or "just the Heil," followed by, "I'm gonna have to get some of those." Bob Heil's name is legendary in the business, and I personally believe he has reset the standard with this range of mics. Stevie Wonder is now using the vocal mic version, the PR-35.

For anyone who follows this up and tries out the PR-30 on a guitar cab, please note that it is a front firing mic, ie, you face the top of the mic toward the source.



Cheers......................................... wahwah