What exactly determines the sound of a pickup. I know there are different types of magnets that give different tones and the amount of wire wraps effects the output. How are there so many models of pickups though? What else is there to influence the tone? How can two pickups with the same magnet and almost the same wraps have a different eq? Thanks.
What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
- Thread starter Renderman
- Start date
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
Welcome! There's a saying, "everything affects everything"; this definitely applies to pickups.
The type of insulation, the diameter of the wire, the amount of wire, the wind pattern and tension of the winding, and any variance between the winds on a humbucker's two bobbins.
The shape and metallurgy of the polepieces and baseplate (and covers).
The charge level and composition of the magnet, even within a subgroup (alnico mags from different suppliers can sound different, even if they're all A5, for instance).
It all adds up to a LOT of choices, coupled with the fact that a pickup that sounds heavenly in one piece of wood, may sound much less impressive in another equally good guitar.
Welcome! There's a saying, "everything affects everything"; this definitely applies to pickups.
The type of insulation, the diameter of the wire, the amount of wire, the wind pattern and tension of the winding, and any variance between the winds on a humbucker's two bobbins.
The shape and metallurgy of the polepieces and baseplate (and covers).
The charge level and composition of the magnet, even within a subgroup (alnico mags from different suppliers can sound different, even if they're all A5, for instance).
It all adds up to a LOT of choices, coupled with the fact that a pickup that sounds heavenly in one piece of wood, may sound much less impressive in another equally good guitar.
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
Hmmm. Given that the baseplate's metallurgy would affect the magnetic field (basically "sapping the field's strength"), would changing the baseplate out for a plastic/non-metal one mean more of the field is directed upwards to the string path?
Hmmm. Given that the baseplate's metallurgy would affect the magnetic field (basically "sapping the field's strength"), would changing the baseplate out for a plastic/non-metal one mean more of the field is directed upwards to the string path?
Zhangliqun
Questionologist
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
Humbucker baseplates are generally non-magnetic so it's not a question of altering the magnetic field per se. But it has the same effect on a pickup, although to a lesser degree, as a humbucker cover. As with covers, some materials tend to sap a touch of top and output more than others.
Humbucker baseplates are generally non-magnetic so it's not a question of altering the magnetic field per se. But it has the same effect on a pickup, although to a lesser degree, as a humbucker cover. As with covers, some materials tend to sap a touch of top and output more than others.
LtKojak
New member
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
An explanation in a few words:
The key factor in pickups winding is always Inductance - DC Resistance and stray ( or parasitic ) Capacitance are inevitable "side effects" caused by the wire's Resistivity not being zero.
The basic equations are F0 ( resonant peak ) = 1/(2pi*(Sqrroot(L/C)))
( where F0 is the resonant Frequency in Hertz, L is the pickup's Inductance in Henries and C is the pickup's stray Capacitance in Farads ).
As you can see, DC Resistance does not appear in the above equation ( =it does not affect the resonant peak ).
DC resistance has some relation with the Q factor instead ( or Quality factor )
Q=(1/R)*(Sqrroot(L/C))
The bigger the Q factor, the narrower the pickup's bandwidth ( more "focused" around Fo ).
This comes from this ( approximated ) equation:
BW=F0/Q
Where F0 and Q have the same meaning as before and BW is the bandwidth in Hertz.
An increased DCR makes the divider ( 1/R ) bigger in the Q equation, resulting in a lower Q, this, together with the higher Inductance ( which grows with the number of turns SQUARED ), will most likely result in a hot pickup, at the cost of a very low resonant Frequency and a large bandwidth, so ( all other factors being equal ) it will probably sound loud, but bassy and muddy ( low definition ) with a reduced "attack".
Hope this will clarify things for you. :cool2:
An explanation in a few words:
The key factor in pickups winding is always Inductance - DC Resistance and stray ( or parasitic ) Capacitance are inevitable "side effects" caused by the wire's Resistivity not being zero.
The basic equations are F0 ( resonant peak ) = 1/(2pi*(Sqrroot(L/C)))
( where F0 is the resonant Frequency in Hertz, L is the pickup's Inductance in Henries and C is the pickup's stray Capacitance in Farads ).
As you can see, DC Resistance does not appear in the above equation ( =it does not affect the resonant peak ).
DC resistance has some relation with the Q factor instead ( or Quality factor )
Q=(1/R)*(Sqrroot(L/C))
The bigger the Q factor, the narrower the pickup's bandwidth ( more "focused" around Fo ).
This comes from this ( approximated ) equation:
BW=F0/Q
Where F0 and Q have the same meaning as before and BW is the bandwidth in Hertz.
An increased DCR makes the divider ( 1/R ) bigger in the Q equation, resulting in a lower Q, this, together with the higher Inductance ( which grows with the number of turns SQUARED ), will most likely result in a hot pickup, at the cost of a very low resonant Frequency and a large bandwidth, so ( all other factors being equal ) it will probably sound loud, but bassy and muddy ( low definition ) with a reduced "attack".
Hope this will clarify things for you. :cool2:
Last edited:
Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
Off the top of my head just a few things that can affect a pickup´s tone:
The spool of wire: Wire guage, exact alloy (copper is not always = copper, and I´ve seen silver wire PUs before
), insulation material and thickness.
The magnet: alloy (Alnico 1-9 , Ceramic, neodymium, samarium cobalt or whatever was chosen), size, exact field strength in gauss (it is entirely possible to have an A2 for example be stronger than an A5, depending on how far you charge the magnet)
Polepieces: Shape /Style, Size, Material. Steel, Iron and Stainless steel all sound different. And this assumes a humbucker wherer the poles are (usually) not the magnets, on a single coil the whole shebang gets even more intricate. ANd of course there is a large audible difference between for example a normal Filister and an invader sized cap screw. Not to mention rails...
Internal spacers: Size and material.
Bobbin material: There´s a good reason almost all PAFs and replicas have butyrate bobbins and maple spacers for example, and it´s not all just "because it´s traditional"
Coil shape and winding pattern in general... More or less tension, more or less even, is the coil "flat" or does it have a pear, hourglass, triangular, convex, concave or "???" shape when viewed from the side? Are the wires evenly tensioned and wound or do some just cross over in what seems to be a random fashoin (aka. scatterwinding)
Steel or brass hold together screws.
Distance from the strings and adjustment of the polepieces (where applicable)
and a few dozen things I cant think of right now....
Off the top of my head just a few things that can affect a pickup´s tone:
The spool of wire: Wire guage, exact alloy (copper is not always = copper, and I´ve seen silver wire PUs before
), insulation material and thickness.The magnet: alloy (Alnico 1-9 , Ceramic, neodymium, samarium cobalt or whatever was chosen), size, exact field strength in gauss (it is entirely possible to have an A2 for example be stronger than an A5, depending on how far you charge the magnet)
Polepieces: Shape /Style, Size, Material. Steel, Iron and Stainless steel all sound different. And this assumes a humbucker wherer the poles are (usually) not the magnets, on a single coil the whole shebang gets even more intricate. ANd of course there is a large audible difference between for example a normal Filister and an invader sized cap screw. Not to mention rails...
Internal spacers: Size and material.
Bobbin material: There´s a good reason almost all PAFs and replicas have butyrate bobbins and maple spacers for example, and it´s not all just "because it´s traditional"
Coil shape and winding pattern in general... More or less tension, more or less even, is the coil "flat" or does it have a pear, hourglass, triangular, convex, concave or "???" shape when viewed from the side? Are the wires evenly tensioned and wound or do some just cross over in what seems to be a random fashoin (aka. scatterwinding)
Steel or brass hold together screws.
Distance from the strings and adjustment of the polepieces (where applicable)
and a few dozen things I cant think of right now....
Last edited:
richard parker
Active member
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
This is great stuff ! The next time I'm asked this question I'll know exactly what to say.
This is great stuff ! The next time I'm asked this question I'll know exactly what to say.
LtKojak
New member
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
I don't see how bobbins and/or spacers can affect the tone... they don't add/take anything from the magnetic circuit flow because they're not part of it.
I don't see how bobbins and/or spacers can affect the tone... they don't add/take anything from the magnetic circuit flow because they're not part of it.
Last edited:
Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
^^ Spacers directly alter the distance between the top of the pickup and the magnet, so the size definitely makes a difference (see also "Airbuckers")
And if you´ll look a the tens of thousands of PAF discussions on all sorts of message boards you´ll often even get teh impression that the maple spacer being maple and bobbins being butyerate are more important than the 42 guage enamel wire :laugh2:
Basic physics shows that every material on earth, incl your body, diffuses or conducts magnetic flux waves to a larger or smaller extent. Often the difference is very minimal and only measurable under labopratory conditions, but it IS there. As a direct result we can logically deduce that any change in any part of a pickiup´s material composition WILL have an impact on the tone. Whether or not it can be HEARD however is an entirely different discussion.
Also, who said that spacers and bobbins HAVE to be made out of plastic or wood...? What about steel, Iron, nicel or cobalt for example?
And if people can supposedly hear the difference between standard 3m cloth tape on the bobbins and electrician´s tape, I´can well imagine it making a difference.
I don`t necessarily feel that way, but I´m not so quick to discredit the opinion of thousands as poppycock without having done the resaerch myself. And I spend too much time building guitars to know more about pickups than what I consider the most rudimentary basics :beerchug:
One of the most "OMFG" moments I´ve had with pickups was installing brass inserts (3mm OD) into the legs of a broken Dimebucker only to find out I had completely destroyed the bass response. Brass isn´t magnetic, either, and the baseplate legs are on the very edge of the field and are in this particular case plastic, so In theory I should have heard no difference. But I could hear it very clearly, and had thankfully recorded it before the mod /repair just to make sure I wasn´t fooling myself. Ever since that day I generally assume that there WILL be a change, because it´s hard to change anything smaller thatn that..
^^ Spacers directly alter the distance between the top of the pickup and the magnet, so the size definitely makes a difference (see also "Airbuckers")
And if you´ll look a the tens of thousands of PAF discussions on all sorts of message boards you´ll often even get teh impression that the maple spacer being maple and bobbins being butyerate are more important than the 42 guage enamel wire :laugh2:
Basic physics shows that every material on earth, incl your body, diffuses or conducts magnetic flux waves to a larger or smaller extent. Often the difference is very minimal and only measurable under labopratory conditions, but it IS there. As a direct result we can logically deduce that any change in any part of a pickiup´s material composition WILL have an impact on the tone. Whether or not it can be HEARD however is an entirely different discussion.
Also, who said that spacers and bobbins HAVE to be made out of plastic or wood...? What about steel, Iron, nicel or cobalt for example?
And if people can supposedly hear the difference between standard 3m cloth tape on the bobbins and electrician´s tape, I´can well imagine it making a difference.
I don`t necessarily feel that way, but I´m not so quick to discredit the opinion of thousands as poppycock without having done the resaerch myself. And I spend too much time building guitars to know more about pickups than what I consider the most rudimentary basics :beerchug:
One of the most "OMFG" moments I´ve had with pickups was installing brass inserts (3mm OD) into the legs of a broken Dimebucker only to find out I had completely destroyed the bass response. Brass isn´t magnetic, either, and the baseplate legs are on the very edge of the field and are in this particular case plastic, so In theory I should have heard no difference. But I could hear it very clearly, and had thankfully recorded it before the mod /repair just to make sure I wasn´t fooling myself. Ever since that day I generally assume that there WILL be a change, because it´s hard to change anything smaller thatn that..
Last edited:
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
Good explanation and work...actually both of the responses.
^^ Spacers directly alter the distance between the top of the pickup and the magnet, so the size definitely makes a difference (see also "Airbuckers")
And if you´ll look a the tens of thousands of PAF discussions on all sorts of message boards you´ll often even get teh impression that the maple spacer being maple and bobbins being butyerate are more important than the 42 guage enamel wire :laugh2:
Basic physics shows that every material on earth, incl your body, diffuses or conducts magnetic flux waves to a larger or smaller extent. Often the difference is very minimal and only measurable under labopratory conditions, but it IS there. As a direct result we can logically deduce that any change in any part of a pickiup´s material composition WILL have an impact on the tone. Whether or not it can be HEARD however is an entirely different discussion.
Also, who said that spacers and bobbins HAVE to be made out of plastic or wood...? What about steel, Iron, nicel or cobalt for example?
And if people can supposedly hear the difference between standard 3m cloth tape on the bobbins and electrician´s tape, I´can well imagine it making a difference.
I don`t necessarily feel that way, but I´m not so quick to discredit the opinion of thousands as poppycock without having done the resaerch myself. And I spend too much time building guitars to know more about pickups than what I consider the most rudimentary basics :beerchug:
One of the most "OMFG" moments I´ve had with pickups was installing brass inserts (3mm OD) into the legs of a broken Dimebucker only to find out I had completely destroyed the bass response. Brass isn´t magnetic, either, and the baseplate legs are on the very edge of the field and are in this particular case plastic, so In theory I should have heard no difference. But I could hear it very clearly, and had thankfully recorded it before the mod /repair just to make sure I wasn´t fooling myself. Ever since that day I generally assume that there WILL be a change, because it´s hard to change anything smaller thatn that..
Good explanation and work...actually both of the responses.
ubertwerp
New member
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
Very Nice commentary Zerberus (is that a middle finger -lol) and LtKojak
Now for the million dollar question ,given the approximate same controlled conditions ,-ie
same player,same wood ,same amp ,same settings-which of the above discussed factors has the greatest impact on tone "quality" ?
Which is the 20% that drives the 80% output .
My money is the on the magnet strength and composition.
What do you guys think ?
Very Nice commentary Zerberus (is that a middle finger -lol) and LtKojak
Now for the million dollar question ,given the approximate same controlled conditions ,-ie
same player,same wood ,same amp ,same settings-which of the above discussed factors has the greatest impact on tone "quality" ?
Which is the 20% that drives the 80% output .
My money is the on the magnet strength and composition.
What do you guys think ?
LtKojak
New member
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
Well... I'd say the magnetic "structure", which's made by all the steel components (baseplate) along with the magnets (A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A8, and Ceramic that BTW has just as many grades as AlNiCo, but in p'up making only C5 and/or C8 are used) and their position in relationship with the internal components (copper wire, slugs, screws) and the external (string composition, player touch).
Every of those components it's a variable affecting directly the outcome.
Well... I'd say the magnetic "structure", which's made by all the steel components (baseplate) along with the magnets (A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A8, and Ceramic that BTW has just as many grades as AlNiCo, but in p'up making only C5 and/or C8 are used) and their position in relationship with the internal components (copper wire, slugs, screws) and the external (string composition, player touch).
Every of those components it's a variable affecting directly the outcome.
Last edited:
Zhangliqun
Questionologist
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
You can manipulate a humbucker's magnetic field a bit by using steel spacers.
Only if there's a spacer between the magnet and the bobbins. Otherwise, they have to be even vertically with the magnet or the bobbins sit cockeyed, splayed in or splayed out.
Also, who said that spacers and bobbins HAVE to be made out of plastic or wood...? What about steel, Iron, nicel or cobalt for example?
You can manipulate a humbucker's magnetic field a bit by using steel spacers.
zerb said:
Only if there's a spacer between the magnet and the bobbins. Otherwise, they have to be even vertically with the magnet or the bobbins sit cockeyed, splayed in or splayed out.
Last edited:
Natman
New member
Re: What Determines The Tone Of A Pickup
Wow, I didn't expect such a display of non-info.
LtKojak: Equations like that mean very little because the frequency(ies) is(are) continually changing as you play. The equations only attempt to describe what is really happening in the circuit. It's really all about the flow of electrons.
Zerberus: any time you see wood or plastic on a pickup it's there because they DON'T conduct, and that's what you want for non-functional parts. Some old pickups use paper bobbins. Everything metal can somewhat absorb magnetic energy in the eddy currents which spin off from every induced current. That's probably what happened with your bass response using brass. The electric field occurs at 90 degrees to the magnetic field regardless.
You don't use metal bobbins because they'll detract from your focus, which is getting the current to flow in the windings. Sure you could do it but it defeats the purpose.
And I very very seriously doubt there's any difference in the tape used. For real real real.
Lastly alnico is different from ceramic in that it conducts and therefore is susceptible to the eddy currents where ceramic is not. I *think* that might be where the perceived smoothness/compression comes from.
Oh and for the pickups's overall sound, I think it's two fold: wind (number of turns and size/type of wire) and magnetic field (shape and intensity). Those are the biggest influence which can be summed up in all the little details we talk about here incessantly.
Wow, I didn't expect such a display of non-info.
LtKojak: Equations like that mean very little because the frequency(ies) is(are) continually changing as you play. The equations only attempt to describe what is really happening in the circuit. It's really all about the flow of electrons.
Zerberus: any time you see wood or plastic on a pickup it's there because they DON'T conduct, and that's what you want for non-functional parts. Some old pickups use paper bobbins. Everything metal can somewhat absorb magnetic energy in the eddy currents which spin off from every induced current. That's probably what happened with your bass response using brass. The electric field occurs at 90 degrees to the magnetic field regardless.
You don't use metal bobbins because they'll detract from your focus, which is getting the current to flow in the windings. Sure you could do it but it defeats the purpose.
And I very very seriously doubt there's any difference in the tape used. For real real real.
Lastly alnico is different from ceramic in that it conducts and therefore is susceptible to the eddy currents where ceramic is not. I *think* that might be where the perceived smoothness/compression comes from.
Oh and for the pickups's overall sound, I think it's two fold: wind (number of turns and size/type of wire) and magnetic field (shape and intensity). Those are the biggest influence which can be summed up in all the little details we talk about here incessantly.
Last edited:
Similar threads
