What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

I've always felt that half-out-of-phase was kind of a misleading term too, yet I do understand why it's come into popular use, describing the result in a way players would relate to rather than denoting the actual configuration. "Tap" is another one that's frequently inaccurate in its popular usage, for splitting humbuckers. Maybe best to avoid it here unless it's literally referring to a connection that comes off a coil somewhere between the beginning and end, rather than in between two coils.

I expect the wiring on these would most likely give access to the the start and finish connections of two separate coils, with the heavier wind perhaps being the outer coil (larger circumference) and the lighter one being the inner, which might have strong output despite fewer windings due to proximity of the central pole mags. Again, that's an assumption on my part.

Zionstrat, I'm still a little confused about your description of start/end/inner coil/outer coil. To help me understand the connections on the pickups (rather than the wiring of the guitar for now), coupla questions:

Is there a fifth wire besides the four colored ones, an actual ground wire?
Are you certain black & green are one coil, and red & white are the other? Or could it be that black & red are start & end of one coil, and green & white are start & end of the other?

What I'm thinking is, switching green & white could be reversing one of your bridge coils relative to other in the same pickup. I understand that it's only reversed like that in the one switch position, but it would be interesting to see if that wiring had an effect when hearing the bridge pickup by itself.

Now I'm afraid I'm gonna be tempted to start experimenting with my own Vox... Unfortunately mine isn't readily available so I can't just pull it out to check the polarity & switching. It would clarify things to know how they were wired in the stock Vox configuration via the three-way "strength" switch. I'm also assuming the third, outermost shielding coil is completely independent from the two signal-producing ones, but I'm not 100% certain of that either. The noise cancelling certainly works well, however it's achieved.


PS: Artietoo, I feel for you man. Hoping your situation improves greatly, and soon.

 

[Artie]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

ArtieToo, I humbly and sincerely wish you to get better ASAP!

PS: Artietoo, I feel for you man. Hoping your situation improves greatly, and soon.

Thanks guys. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Artie- No hijacking possible, it's an honor to have you on the thread!

ES, Yep, decoding the coaxe took weeks on another thread listed below and every one was confused to the point that my EE buddy thought he had proved that they were dead- Turns out we just didnt understnad how they worked and they are great in the project-

There is no separate ground and it's also confusing because there is no access to the individual coils as we are used to with 4 wires-

We finally chased down the the pickup designer and he described it as follows:

Inner coil= Red is the full sensing coil and White is the tap.

You need to select the proper part for the noise canceling coil at
the same time:

Outer coil= Black is the full NC coil, and Green is the tap.

(The coil junction is made on the baseplate of the pickup, and is always connected.)

I think you described the engineerin correctly, but there is a wonderful article here that really digs in-
http://www.planetz.com/vox-coaxe-interview-with-vox-rd/

Once we understood the unusual design, the tapping system was straight forward and works very well. To be clear, in the 'normal' coaxe positions, everything works exactly as advertised- The unusual behavior I've been discussing only happens when I turn on the semi-hoop circuit.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...und-like-and-why-Gurus-needed&highlight=coaxe

 

[vinnie1971]

What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Half out of phase is not a sound I am hugely fond of using a 0.01 cap. I had a strat using capacitors for out of phase and the so called half out of phase with 0.01 just sounds too boxy. 0.1 or 0.2 uF sound more like out of phase but not so shrill as more bass is present in the signal.

On a SC guitar I use 0.1 uF got out of phase and for a HB guitar 0.2uF

If you get the chance try the Breja Toneworks Fan Armstrong blend mod but use a 0.1 uF cap to jumper the terminals instead of a wire. Out of phase sounds fatter, but still scooped and series sounds less muddy because you are throttling the very low bass frequencies.

Half out of phase is interesting , why does it work? Well when you put a coil RWRP with another in series or in parallel they become hum-cancelling, but not only do the cancel hum the also cancel frequencies.

When you put 2 pickups or or 2 coils out of phase you remove the hum cancellation but introduce frequency cancellation as wave forms overlap.

Only the high frequencies stay uncanceled hence the thin shrill sound.

When you put a capacitor in signal with the reversed ground to hot signal, you are restricting the lower frequencies so those don't get the overlapping wave form the cause cancellation hence they stay in signal.

Think about what happens when you put a .1 uF or 0.2uF cap on a tone put and roll it off all the way. Total mud. Only the lowest bass frequencies stay in signal.

When you use a capacitor to throttle the reversed ground to hot those same bass frequencies can't get past the cap so the bass frequencies out of phase cancellation is cancelled out and retained in signal. The smaller the cap, the more signal restricted, and more frequencies whose out of phase cancellation is reversed. When you use a 0.01 uF cap so much frequency cancellation is cancelled out that even though the coils might be in parallel say bridge and neck single coils on a strat, they sound louder than in phase but in series because in humbucking mode they cancel frequencies but in HOoP with 0.01 uF cap all that cancellation is reversed so even in parallel they sound louder.


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[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Vinnie-
Thanks for the HooP basics- that makes total sense to me-

I've found HooPs to be significantly different from guitar to guitar, so I alligator clip in a variety of caps to see how HooP works in that build- I'll have to start with a 0.1 uF or 0.2uF next go round.

And that's how I bumped into the HooP- cap sound sound- I didn't realize that I didn't have a cap connected and got lucky with a new sound.

BTW, we've used this prewired tele drop in before and we were quite happy- but frankly this is such an easy mod that practically anyone can wire it in a few minutes-

https://reverb.com/p/920d-custom-sh...SxXVDwWlGSBEbCsuC42ulhoCQJ_w_wcB&hfid=1046168

Great thread and thanks again for all the good input! I will revisit the next time I need some inspiration.
Mickey Zstrat

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Artie- No hijacking possible, it's an honor to have you on the thread!

ES, Yep, decoding the coaxe took weeks on another thread listed below and every one was confused to the point that my EE buddy thought he had proved that they were dead- Turns out we just didnt understnad how they worked and they are great in the project-

There is no separate ground and it's also confusing because there is no access to the individual coils as we are used to with 4 wires-

We finally chased down the the pickup designer and he described it as follows:

Inner coil= Red is the full sensing coil and White is the tap.

You need to select the proper part for the noise canceling coil at
the same time:

Outer coil= Black is the full NC coil, and Green is the tap.

(The coil junction is made on the baseplate of the pickup, and is always connected.)

I think you described the engineerin correctly, but there is a wonderful article here that really digs in-
http://www.planetz.com/vox-coaxe-interview-with-vox-rd/

Once we understood the unusual design, the tapping system was straight forward and works very well. To be clear, in the 'normal' coaxe positions, everything works exactly as advertised- The unusual behavior I've been discussing only happens when I turn on the semi-hoop circuit.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...und-like-and-why-Gurus-needed&highlight=coaxe

Ah, I get it. I'd assumed there was a third coil for noise cancelling, but there are only two and the sensing coil is in fact tapped while the second coil is only for noise cancelling (and it's tapped too). Sorry I misunderstood you there. Part of what threw me off was that on my SSC55 each pickup has a three position switch. I'd assumed all three settings were achieved using different combinations of coils, as on the Virage. But actually it's tapped/full/fat; the third setting uses filtering to give a thicker tone for leads. Never knew that, thanks.

Great article at that link, Zion. Finally shines some light on exactly how these pickups work. I'd been told they were an evolution of the Virage pickups but they're more different than I thought. And I never knew they made a vintage-voiced version of the CoAxe either, using pole screws & a heavier wind. Would love to hear those. But probably never will.

 

[vinnie1971]

What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Vinnie-
Thanks for the HooP basics- that makes total sense to me-

I've found HooPs to be significantly different from guitar to guitar, so I alligator clip in a variety of caps to see how HooP works in that build- I'll have to start with a 0.1 uF or 0.2uF next go round.

And that's how I bumped into the HooP- cap sound sound- I didn't realize that I didn't have a cap connected and got lucky with a new sound.

BTW, we've used this prewired tele drop in before and we were quite happy- but frankly this is such an easy mod that practically anyone can wire it in a few minutes-

https://reverb.com/p/920d-custom-sh...SxXVDwWlGSBEbCsuC42ulhoCQJ_w_wcB&hfid=1046168

Great thread and thanks again for all the good input! I will revisit the next time I need some inspiration.
Mickey Zstrat

If you have a strat, try the the Dan Armstrong mod with 0.1, 0.15 and 0.2 jumpers for the series/parallel/ out of phase blender. Replace the blue and the red wires. This wiring scheme is pure genius.

When neck or bridge is selected, you blend middle in series until fully on.

In positions 2 and 4 you blend the the middle in parallel out of phase. With the cap at 5 you get cool half out of phase - more noticeable with 0.2 cap, but the fully blended out of phase sounds best and most usable with 0.1cap.

I also put a push pull on the volume to jumper the hot connections for neck and bridge so when up, whichever of the bridge or neck is selected the other one is also.

With push pull for neck and bridge this is the best mod for a strat SSS I have ever tried.

With the push pull mod up and positions 2 or 4 selected what would otherwise be dead spots, with the caps on become mud switches so you get that 50s Tele neck through a 0.1 cap, all bass no treble. But if you don't install a neck bridge push pull then you won't get that.

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[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Great article at that link, Zion. Finally shines some light on exactly how these pickups work. I'd been told they were an evolution of the Virage pickups but they're more different than I thought. And I never knew they made a vintage-voiced version of the CoAxe either, using pole screws & a heavier wind.

Considering there are so few coaxe nuts (because of limited supply), we need to stick together and we should get some good search footprint from these threads-

And agreed, I would love to hear the vintage voice- I can't wind at this level of detail, so it would be wonderful if a PUP manufacturer would add this design to their stable-
Cheers ZS

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

If you have a strat, try the the Dan Armstrong mod with 0.1, 0.15 and 0.2 jumpers for the series/parallel/ out of phase blender. Replace the blue and the red wires. This wiring scheme is pure genius.

Vinnie, I've often considered this mod, but all of my strats have ended up exactly where I need them to be and I've never had a customer that had the guts to try this one- So I may get GAS and have to get a strat just for this mod

If I understand correctly, the blend means that you have a mix of parallel and series going on at the same time and that has never made the least bit of sense to my poor brain. A friend has a Washburn that has a dedicated blend between series and parallel and I just can't imagine why this works-

In my imagination, it's like saying water will go straight down this pipe and into another pipe (series), but at the same time it will also come into both pipes from the source (parallel). That just doesn't add up in my mind-

Clearly my plumbing analogies destroy my thinking when we're talking more than volts and amps

Thanks for all the good input, I've saved this thread and hope I can implement some of this before I get old-
Cheers,
ZS

 

[vinnie1971]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

The blend works as follows:
In positions 1 and 5 the blend adds the middle pickup in series to the the other pickup by using a pot to connect the ground from the selected pickup to the hot of the middle pickup. instead of the ground connection of the selected pickup going to ground so they are still in phase just connected like a humbucker.

In position 2 and 4 it's strange because it's being blended out of phase even though at the start of the travel of the pot, it's in phase.

If you try it, use the capacitors - the series and out of phase are so much more usable.

If I get a chance I'll have to demo it.


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[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

If I get a chance I'll have to demo it.

Looking forward!