What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

[AudioWonderland]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

Five years ago, I posed the following to this group:

We’re getting ready to head off to our annual Business Planning retreat next month. We'll assess where we are at the moment and where we want to be in terms of short, medium, and long-term plans for the company. One of the things we plan on discussing is the value of “Made in America” on our Seymour Duncan, Basslines, Custom Shop, Antiquity and Benedetto pickup brands.

I’m going to print out this thread and let the managers read your remarks before we head off to Business Planning. Please let us know your comments. In particular, think about the following: What does “Made in America” mean to you in general and with regard to the Seymour Duncan family of products?​

Partially as a result of your comments, we decided to keep Seymour Duncan pickups made in USA for at least the next five years. You can read about our 2006 decision here.

Well, it’s time, again, for us to revisit this question as we go off to our annual Business Planning retreat later this month.

Please weigh in again and let us know what you think. I guarantee you’ll be heard. Thank you in advance for your comments and thanks in advance for making your response about consumer buying habits and not about geo-politics.

I think you need to look at Peavey and how they severely devalued their brand moving their guitar (and likely other) production mostly over seas and whoring themselves out to the highest bidder. They were a valued brand in the 70's and 80's providing reliable and affordable equipment. Now they don't really register any better than Behringer on the respect meter in my eyes. Differentiation is the key in a competitive market. Moving your stuff elsewhere would be a move backwards into the pack of wannabes.

PRS has been testing the waters of late making an SE version of their Cu24. Its a nice guitar. No flaws to speak of in a quantifiable sense. When you pick it up to play it though its quite obvious its not up to the standard of the Maryland based equivilant.

Consider this. You have had the "Duncan Designed" pickups out there for a while now. I believe they are made over seas. Is anyone clamoring for more of those? Have they impacted your sales of the American made product at all? I kind of doubt it. If you want to develop your version of Epiphone vs Gibson sort of strategy I suppose that could make some sense but eliminating what happens in Santa Barbara would be suicide. To the best of my knowledge Your main competitor, DiMarzio, are still MIA. Dimarzio makes a fine product even if some of their trademark decisions are questionable. I would choose DiMarzio over a 3rd party made Duncan any day of the week let alone any of the fine boutique winders.

 

[Will S-T]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

As a NON American customer, I too feel that the prestige would shine a little less.
Current product being outsourced overseas would have a negative impact on your
greatest consumer source, North Americans.

Having said that, NEW products made overseas could develope into a whole
new lucrative market.

Who here would consider an Australian or German made and or designed product
built by Seymour Duncan Australia or Germany?

Think of the high manufacturing standards, the quality control and indeed the
great talents of some of our own pickup designers and makers.
Would you buy a new pickup made by Schaller for Seymour Duncan?

Some food for thought!

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

I think you need to look at Peavey and how they severely devalued their brand moving their guitar (and likely other) production mostly over seas and whoring themselves out to the highest bidder. They were a valued brand in the 70's and 80's providing reliable and affordable equipment. Now they don't really register any better than Behringer on the respect meter in my eyes. Differentiation is the key in a competitive market. Moving your stuff elsewhere would be a move backwards into the pack of wannabes

Don't forget Ampeg. It was one of the most respected names and some of the best equipment ever made for decades, but turned into a trash brand pretty much overnight when they moved overseas.

 

[Ascension]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

i'd quit buying new ones if they were made somewhere else, and only buy used, MADE IN THE USA SEYMOUR DUNCAN PICKUPS. I too am sick of American companies moving production over seas. if you guys are considering moving production overseas, then it must be for monetary reasons. therefore you guys need to figure out where to save some money, and keep production here. simple as that.

I second this sentiment. I am the Chair of a State Political Party jobs and fighting to keep manufacturing here in the USA is what I do. Outsource the line and I will do business elsewhere simple as that.

 

[IMENATOR]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

hahaha, well. I listen to you guys. Does anyone here at the forum think the SD stomp boxes are low quality? Come on, the factory tour video states those are made overseas and are QA tested in the US, nothing more. Please let me know if I got it wrong. A lot of people prefers to buy Japanese cars rather than cars even when cars are icon of the US culture. Not to mention there are lots of guitar players who will always prefer Ibanez guitars over Fender guitars.

So, if you are a consumer who buys only the "american tradition" that is perfectly fine, I also want to have that option. However I also realize I would not mind buying a pickup that is made in China as long as you can be sure you get the quality I am expecting from the product. So if Seymour Ducan can match that US Quality Assurance even on overseas factories I don't care as long as a US made JB will sound the same as a China made JB (how about a taichi break in the factory )

I have had the chance to visit different food and beverage, pharmaceutical and other kind of manufacturing facilites and the thing I have always seen is this: Companies can mach the product quality then need even with overseas operations as long as they are interested on doing quality products, however other companies just want to lower costs and increase revenue so they forget about quality because they think advertising on magazines and TV will keep the sales going on and that is not true.

 

[Captain Tightpants]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

American manufacturing needs to be preserved, at least what precious little is left of it for reasons that have already been mentioned in this thread, not leadt of which is American jobs.

Seymour Duncan is one of the last great American manufactures. To lose it to foreign interests would be nothing short of a national tragedy.

Where the heck would we have been in 1945 if it hadn't been for American manufacturing?

 

[tenniso]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

I second this sentiment. I am the Chair of a State Political Party jobs and fighting to keep manufacturing here in the USA is what I do. Outsource the line and I will do business elsewhere simple as that.

Amen brother! Evan, are you guys listening?

 

[tenniso]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

however other companies just want to lower costs and increase revenue so they forget about quality because they think advertising on magazines and TV will keep the sales going on and that is not true.[/QUOTE]


i hope to GOD that Seymour Duncan doesn't fall into this trap. what a shame that would be.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

hahaha, well. I listen to you guys. Does anyone here at the forum think the SD stomp boxes are low quality?

I won't comment on their pedals, but I will say that my loyalty to Seymour Duncan is based upon their American made pickups. I like the sound I get from them and I value the people who make them.

In my business I deal with several manufacturers that have both American made and Asian products. I can purchase something as simple as a coat hook that is made in America or one that looks identical but is an import for roughly half price. The difference in cost is a true reflection of the difference in quality. I understand that these manufacturers want to be able to bring something to market to compete at all price points, but junk is junk.

I am not a MIA purist and doubt the veracity of anyone who claims to be one. I have owned Honda and Toyota automobiles and may again .... and yes, I own a TV and a computer and all sorts of devices that were probably assembled overseas, but when it comes to my gear I have drawn a line. I am aware of several great sounding, popular, affordable Chinese and Korean made amps in production right now and I understand why people purchase them, but I won't (intentionally). I will save for something American made. This will hold true for my guitars and pickups as well.

By the way, I am not a snob. I just love the smell of cork.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

hahaha, well. I listen to you guys. Does anyone here at the forum think the SD stomp boxes are low quality?

I do, I haven't had good luck with them and attribute the fact due to lack of control.

My brand loyalty come SD's pups though, not their pedals.

This discussion always has to do with labor costs and how "expensive" it is to pay for labor in the US. Meanwhile we as US citizen think we're entitled
to the fat pay check. I'm going to bet dollars to dimes that the price per pickup will not go down if manufacturing moves overseas.....it'll get a lot of cash on the books to pay the shareholders (be it Seymour and Cathy or a board) a great dividend or prepare the company for a sale.

I'm like Christian on this. I will not leave Seymour Duncan if they move manufacturing.....it will be Seymour Duncan who has left me.

Luke

 

[trevorus]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

"Made in USA" has value if the company producing it is known for quality. As I am sure that most people here would agree, SD makes some of the best pickups on the market. The ability to call up, and talk to people who have had your pickups through their hands, decide exactly what you want means a lot. I have a Brobucker that a friend gave me (thanks ganzosrevenge!!!!) and the box it came in has the name of the person who wound it, the date it was made, all handwritten. That truly means a lot. When I pick up my guitar, (which is a Gibson LP Studio '94) knowing that I have an Antiquity and a Brobucker in it makes be proud of owning it.

I have tried other stuff, including the Asian builders, and it just doesn't compare. Something about people that grew up in a similar culture, knowing the musical identity of that culture does make a difference in the end product, in my opinion, of course. If SD did move production overseas, I doubt I would be that interested in that product line. When Celestion moved their production to China, I decided not to buy any. I'll go Weber or WGS. I opened my recently acquired Marshall 1965A cabinet, and seeing the four UK made Celestions let me know I am getting the Celestion we know and love (a lot of us).

As far as the financial side goes, I know that bills have to be paid, and you have to make decisions to keep things afloat, but I think domestic production of a product such as this figures in to it's value, and into it's very identity. Not just because of the where, but the who. Look at the pickups made by Abigail Ybarra. There is a reason she is well known among the guitarist's culture. Mr. Duncan and the company as a whole shares this sort of identity.

 

[Lucid_Lunatic]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

The USA line of pickups mean the best. In my eyes, to move production out of country would be akin to a glorified Duncan Design import. It wouldn't matter if they were wound the exact same way, by the exact same people. There would be some kind of lost mojo or spirit, at least in perception. I take alot of pride just being able to say that all my guitars have "REAL" SD pickups. Not Designs, not GFS, not stock and not some other mass produced import.

I can honestly say, if SD moved all pickup production out of country, I have enough brand loyalty that I would buy up as many old stock US models that I like to last me, and would never buy a new out of country model.

 

[Scott_F]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

I've been to the factory several times. The thing that hits me is that Seymour is there and in some form or another is overseeing the production floor. If a problem comes up, he's either there or at the ranch and a short trip back in. That expertise is why I buy SD pups. Having MJ in the custom shop with all her experience, can't replace that.

So, now if the pups are all made overseas, they get inspected here when they arrive. Then invariably, a few don't get inspected and a few dogs get into the market. Not everyone that buys SD pups hits this forum and learns the subtle ins and outs. So, word gets out to their friends that Sd pups suck, even though it needs to come back to Santa Bar. for a fix. But they don't know that.

As a small builder of amplifiers that lacks time and has to turn business away, one of the things that guys are always mentioning to me is that my amps are build in the USA. People want that these days. They are also willing to pay a bit more for that.

I really hope the Santa Barb facility keeps all those folks employed. We as a country do not need to lose any more manufacturing to overseas.

The company I work for makes our stuff here in the US. IT's a big advantage when we do what we do.

 

[Hyperborea]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

So how many of the US only crowd own an Ibanez, a MIM/MIJ Fender, a Godin, a Yamaha, a Marshall, a Vox, an ESP, a Traynor, GFS pickups, Schaller or Gotoh hardware, etc? Why?

 

[LtKojak]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

There's something striking 'bout Duncan p'ups: you take fx a late '80s, a mid '90 and a made last week '59n and they all sound the same: excellent! You can't tell which one is which by ear alone. What does it tell you? It tells you that no matter what and no matter when, when you need that sound, you can get it. Anytime, anywhere.

This tells you that Seymour Duncan p'ups have always been made with the same hi-quality parts, alloys and magnets. It tells you that you can trust the Duncan company.

Why is that? Because over the years they've built a network of trustworthy companies where they source those parts to precise specs. That they have employees that will make and assemble every part and follow every manufacturing process in a way you can trust it'll ensure to produce the same result.

The Duncan factory is REALLY a big family. And as a family, they KNOW they can trust each other and rely on each other for everything and anything. In and out, above and beyond.

That's what the Seymour Duncan company is all about: Trust and Excellence.

If they move the complete operation overseas, they will lose the very reason that they got'em where they are today and the very reason WHY they started the company in the first place.

If I was a gambler, I wouldn't put a penny on Duncan moving overseas. Not now, not ever, for as long Seymour and Cathy will be in the company.

But as they do now with the OEM line of "Duncan Designed", if they decide to make a low-price line of p'ups that can also be bought in the US, I'd say they can raise to the occasion and do it by making a whole new line with ground-breaking specs and applications, and every so often presenting new models, as the cost of production is so low that it could turn out to be worthwhile to break new ground for the future, trying out new materials and technologies and creating new ones!

Well, that's my take. If you ever need somebody to your overseas operations, give me a call. I'd drop everything I do in a heartbeat!

 

[ginormous]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

We guitarists and bassists (I count myself as one of each... there's enough of me to go around) are a persnickety bunch.

The rest of the world is WiFi'ed, iPadded and bluetoothed (blueteething?), but we sill gaze upon the soft, warm orange glow of a tube amp as if it were lights on a Christmas tree. We talk about distortion as a good thing, while the rest of the universe is trying to eliminate it at every turn.

The very idea of anything but copper wire on a pickup sends us all in a tizzy.

Some of us think the very idea of wireless guitar sysems borders on heretical.

And while we know the odds are against it, we want Seymour to live forever.

Yeah, we know there are some great guitars coming from places other than Corona, El Cajon, Nashville, Kalamazoo or Nazareth, PA. We know the economics of world trade demand a practical approach to manufacturing. We know all these things, but yet...

we want our sounds to be as authentic as possible. We need the people making the product to know how much we appreciate their efforts. We have to have our stuff made our way.

We're proud of what you do. We like things the way they are.

 

[pinto79]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

I'll post again later.

 

[TattooedCarrot]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

So how many of the US only crowd own an Ibanez, a MIM/MIJ Fender, a Godin, a Yamaha, a Marshall, a Vox, an ESP, a Traynor, GFS pickups, Schaller or Gotoh hardware, etc? Why?

I get the hypocracy point you're making, but with the exception of Fender and GFS (I think) none of those other companies are American companies who moved their production offshore. IMO there's a difference between buying from a non-American company and buying from an American company that sent American jobs overseas.

That said, I would not boycott Duncan, or any other company for moving production overseas; its their business. However, for many of the reasons mentioned, I would not be as loyal in principle nor as confident in quality if they did so.

I still like the idea of splitting the line between the cheaper import models, possibly directly sold, and a wider range custom and shop floor custom USA line. Target both markets and lower overhead on a lot of the high volume production stuff? Just thinking out loud.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

Watching a great company move production to a cheap labour area of the world, whether you're an American or otherwise, says something.

I consider Seymour Duncan pickups to be a premium product. I know that when I buy a Duncan pickup I am getting something designed by a legend, made by skilled craftspeople, and backed by a proud company that values my business. It's akin to buying a BMW sedan or a bottle of fine single malt. Yeah, I can spend less for something roughly equivalent, but it won't be the same. Good products cost money, but it's always money well spent.

Moving production to Asia sends a clear message to me, the consumer. That message is:

1. Your profit margin is more important than my satisfaction.

2. You're no longer interested in being a premium brand.

Would you buy a BMW made in Nicaragua? Would you buy a bottle of scotch distilled in Vietnam? I wouldn't. Life's too short to buy cheap crap. I treat every gear purchase as an investment. I definitely consider Seymour Duncan pickups made in Santa Barbara to be a good investment. I would not think the same about a Seymour Duncan made in China.

Please don't dilute your brand. Please don't forget that product quality is, and always will be, king. I'd rather see you raise prices than move production, if that's what it comes down to.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)

Imenator and Hyperborea,

I don't really get how your statements are a response to what others are saying. The majority of us are not saying that stuff is crap simply because it is not made here. Nor are we saying to only buy U.S.-made products. We are simply saying that we don't want more U.S. jobs outsourced. A U.S.-based company using foreign labor to produce the goods is much more repulsive to me than any drop in quality that may occur.