What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
- Thread starter Evan Skopp
- Start date
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
I would agree with you. In fact, I think you and I pm'ed as much recently. I'm guessing guys that join this year or last year will say the same thing in 5 years. The internet is a fluid thing and personalities come and go. I miss a lot of the old timers that aren't here, but I also value a lot of the new guys and their opinions and experiences. CHange is inevitable. It's the only constant in this world.
I would agree with you. In fact, I think you and I pm'ed as much recently. I'm guessing guys that join this year or last year will say the same thing in 5 years. The internet is a fluid thing and personalities come and go. I miss a lot of the old timers that aren't here, but I also value a lot of the new guys and their opinions and experiences. CHange is inevitable. It's the only constant in this world.
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
Being able to buy goods that are made in the USA, that are also a great value, means a lot to me. Seymour Duncan pickups meet that criteria.
What I mean by being a great value is that they are a very well designed products that are very reasonably priced when compared to other made in the USA pickups from the "boutique" builders. It's nice to not have to spend an arm and a leg to get a high quality, USA made product.
I say keep up the good work.
BrianS.
Being able to buy goods that are made in the USA, that are also a great value, means a lot to me. Seymour Duncan pickups meet that criteria.
What I mean by being a great value is that they are a very well designed products that are very reasonably priced when compared to other made in the USA pickups from the "boutique" builders. It's nice to not have to spend an arm and a leg to get a high quality, USA made product.
I say keep up the good work.
BrianS.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
You're right, he did. When I saw it I did a major facepalm. :smack:
I figured this was how it would go. I figured some people would read this as a veiled "Do you think it's okay if we make more stuff overseas?" trial balloon, when nothing is further from the truth. You guys have to look at it more like a research paper to stimulate discussion among the management team as we consider the landscape 5, 10, 15 years out.
This morning I was thinking this was ill-timed, but in Evan's defense I think he tried to frame it as a positive. "What does it mean to you?" elicits (in me anyway) thoughts like: It means the intellectual capital of a company is in the same place/culture/language/etc. as the manufacturing. That usually means good connections between those who invent and those who build. Good connections between quality control, engineering, etc. These things are less important in things like iPhones and household appliances, especially when you get into production runs of hundreds of thousands or millions. That's a whole different beast.
I also think it's worth mentioning that the discussion can be framed in different ways. One sub-category is: "When a company is founded in country X, (whether that's European, Asian, North American, etc) and then later switches manufacturing of their products to lower cost labor. (Asian or otherwise) I would think of this as outsourcing. The other sub-category is what do you think about the value of American products vs the products of other countries? (native or outsourced) In other words, regardless of what country you live in, how do you perceive a US product's value differently than other countries?
You're right, he did. When I saw it I did a major facepalm. :smack:
I figured this was how it would go. I figured some people would read this as a veiled "Do you think it's okay if we make more stuff overseas?" trial balloon, when nothing is further from the truth. You guys have to look at it more like a research paper to stimulate discussion among the management team as we consider the landscape 5, 10, 15 years out.
This morning I was thinking this was ill-timed, but in Evan's defense I think he tried to frame it as a positive. "What does it mean to you?" elicits (in me anyway) thoughts like: It means the intellectual capital of a company is in the same place/culture/language/etc. as the manufacturing. That usually means good connections between those who invent and those who build. Good connections between quality control, engineering, etc. These things are less important in things like iPhones and household appliances, especially when you get into production runs of hundreds of thousands or millions. That's a whole different beast.
I also think it's worth mentioning that the discussion can be framed in different ways. One sub-category is: "When a company is founded in country X, (whether that's European, Asian, North American, etc) and then later switches manufacturing of their products to lower cost labor. (Asian or otherwise) I would think of this as outsourcing. The other sub-category is what do you think about the value of American products vs the products of other countries? (native or outsourced) In other words, regardless of what country you live in, how do you perceive a US product's value differently than other countries?
Rusty Fingers
New member
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
I'm still amazed by my set of Seths and I doubt I would feel the same if they were manufactured by someone else somewhere else. But, to me, the value of Duncans is less about the "made in the usa" label and more about "made by someone who knows".....because you can hear the difference. While pickups can be mass produced, the best ones, regardless of manufacturer, still seem to have a "hand made" or "knowledge based" component in their manufacture.
I'm still amazed by my set of Seths and I doubt I would feel the same if they were manufactured by someone else somewhere else. But, to me, the value of Duncans is less about the "made in the usa" label and more about "made by someone who knows".....because you can hear the difference. While pickups can be mass produced, the best ones, regardless of manufacturer, still seem to have a "hand made" or "knowledge based" component in their manufacture.
J
Jessie's ghost
Guest
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
As I said before, I like my Seemore Duckmans to be made en los Estados Unidos.
As I said before, I like my Seemore Duckmans to be made en los Estados Unidos.
LtKojak
New member
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
Evan... if you don't know what changed in the last five years, the only conclusion I can come to is that you've been in prison for the last five years... in isolation! The whole friggin' WORLD is not the same as five years ago!
And as for the Forum, I've signed in a little over five years ago, so that's all I know and I can confirm it has significantly changed, specially over the last two years.
The change in the Forum is tha same I see all over... the most authoring people goes, the new, most vocal entries will fight anybody to death solely based on the newest, most powerful religion there is: HEARSAY.
That's the way the whole world is going folks. Just don't look so surprised! :banghead:
Evan... if you don't know what changed in the last five years, the only conclusion I can come to is that you've been in prison for the last five years... in isolation! The whole friggin' WORLD is not the same as five years ago!
And as for the Forum, I've signed in a little over five years ago, so that's all I know and I can confirm it has significantly changed, specially over the last two years.
The change in the Forum is tha same I see all over... the most authoring people goes, the new, most vocal entries will fight anybody to death solely based on the newest, most powerful religion there is: HEARSAY.
That's the way the whole world is going folks. Just don't look so surprised! :banghead:
JollyRoger523
Member
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
To me Made in USA Duncans are a sign of:
1. Quality
2. Commitment
3. Pride of workmanship
4. Tradition
When I see any quality product that is made locally (to the business' headquarters) I feel there is an inherent quality that you could never achieve by making that product half-way around the world. I realize that good products can be made anywhere, as well as bad products. It says a lot about the quality of a product when the company has highly skilled employees with immediate access to the shop floor. Maintaining a local manufacturing process shows me that the company takes pride in their work and values the quality of the product. In contrast, a company who moves production off shore shows me that the company cares more about profit than quality. I think most people here would agree that SD makes some of the best pickups on the market, and at a reasonable price.
SD also shows commitment to its customers. Holding an event like User Group Day is a prime example. I have seen Evan and Frank answer numerous questions on these forums. By starting this thread and asking for our input it shows that the customer is valued. Other post have also been made in the past asking for our input on SD products. I've never had to call Customer Service, but posts on these boards indicate it is first class. Customers can call the Custom Shop and order shop floor customs or completely custom pick ups. This is something that would be more difficult if the manufacturing was not done locally.
I'm not the most knowledgeable person on pick up construction but I know that several of the PAF styles are made with materials and processes to replicate, as closely as possible, the original PAFs. This shows attention to detail and pride in a quality product. Again this is something that I feel can not be as closely controlled with manufacturing taking place half-way around the world. There is also the traditional aspect of "This is the way its always been done", just like tube amplifiers or Tennessee Whiskey.
Lastly, continuing to keep USA products being made in the USA means a lot to me on a personal level. Before I switched careers a few years ago I worked in the manufacturing industry (JourneyMan Machinist) for a decade. I have personally seen on a first hand basis the damage that is done by moving manufacturing over seas.
Seymour Duncan's business practices as a whole are rarely seen anymore. This is why I stay a loyal customer and would not hesitate to recommend their pick ups.
To me Made in USA Duncans are a sign of:
1. Quality
2. Commitment
3. Pride of workmanship
4. Tradition
When I see any quality product that is made locally (to the business' headquarters) I feel there is an inherent quality that you could never achieve by making that product half-way around the world. I realize that good products can be made anywhere, as well as bad products. It says a lot about the quality of a product when the company has highly skilled employees with immediate access to the shop floor. Maintaining a local manufacturing process shows me that the company takes pride in their work and values the quality of the product. In contrast, a company who moves production off shore shows me that the company cares more about profit than quality. I think most people here would agree that SD makes some of the best pickups on the market, and at a reasonable price.
SD also shows commitment to its customers. Holding an event like User Group Day is a prime example. I have seen Evan and Frank answer numerous questions on these forums. By starting this thread and asking for our input it shows that the customer is valued. Other post have also been made in the past asking for our input on SD products. I've never had to call Customer Service, but posts on these boards indicate it is first class. Customers can call the Custom Shop and order shop floor customs or completely custom pick ups. This is something that would be more difficult if the manufacturing was not done locally.
I'm not the most knowledgeable person on pick up construction but I know that several of the PAF styles are made with materials and processes to replicate, as closely as possible, the original PAFs. This shows attention to detail and pride in a quality product. Again this is something that I feel can not be as closely controlled with manufacturing taking place half-way around the world. There is also the traditional aspect of "This is the way its always been done", just like tube amplifiers or Tennessee Whiskey.
Lastly, continuing to keep USA products being made in the USA means a lot to me on a personal level. Before I switched careers a few years ago I worked in the manufacturing industry (JourneyMan Machinist) for a decade. I have personally seen on a first hand basis the damage that is done by moving manufacturing over seas.
Seymour Duncan's business practices as a whole are rarely seen anymore. This is why I stay a loyal customer and would not hesitate to recommend their pick ups.
Last edited:
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
I think that to really answer the question posed, one has to determine what 'value' means. I'm sure that to each of us it may mean something different.
In terms of tone alone, Duncan pickups are not only comparable, but in my opinion, top notch among their peers. This is a critical part of the value of a Duncan to me regardless of country of origin.
But I think that the question goes deeper than that. Having been around here for quite a while (I don't post often but read these forms a great deal), I have come to appreciate the community and atmosphere that has been cultivated by this company. I think that it's a huge boon to the organization that you have knowledgeable and courteous professionals like Frank and Evan interfacing with your customers and addressing our concerns.
In short, when I buy a Duncan I feel like that I know who I am buying from.
To further flesh out the concept for those who make business decisions, I would say this: when I shell out the cash to buy new pickups, Seymour Duncan gets my money 99% of the time. This is because I am not only buying a great pickup, but making an investment in Americans and American jobs within a company that has been great to deal with in every way. As a result, I feel like I'm getting more for my money than just a great pickup; to me that is value.
I think that to really answer the question posed, one has to determine what 'value' means. I'm sure that to each of us it may mean something different.
In terms of tone alone, Duncan pickups are not only comparable, but in my opinion, top notch among their peers. This is a critical part of the value of a Duncan to me regardless of country of origin.
But I think that the question goes deeper than that. Having been around here for quite a while (I don't post often but read these forms a great deal), I have come to appreciate the community and atmosphere that has been cultivated by this company. I think that it's a huge boon to the organization that you have knowledgeable and courteous professionals like Frank and Evan interfacing with your customers and addressing our concerns.
In short, when I buy a Duncan I feel like that I know who I am buying from.
To further flesh out the concept for those who make business decisions, I would say this: when I shell out the cash to buy new pickups, Seymour Duncan gets my money 99% of the time. This is because I am not only buying a great pickup, but making an investment in Americans and American jobs within a company that has been great to deal with in every way. As a result, I feel like I'm getting more for my money than just a great pickup; to me that is value.
Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
The only thought I have is being at the 35th Anniversary picnic, seeing all the families there, and telling them all it's over.
As someone who's fired people in the past 3 years, that's the first thing I think of, and how much I despise China for being as good as we could have been if we'd had intelligent men running our country for the past several decades.
If you want a good example of how business friendly our country is, and how much they deserve to see all their companies flee for China, ask Gibson.
Rosewood, ebony, and lead solder for pickups. Pure bureaucratic BS.
The only thought I have is being at the 35th Anniversary picnic, seeing all the families there, and telling them all it's over.
As someone who's fired people in the past 3 years, that's the first thing I think of, and how much I despise China for being as good as we could have been if we'd had intelligent men running our country for the past several decades.
If you want a good example of how business friendly our country is, and how much they deserve to see all their companies flee for China, ask Gibson.
Rosewood, ebony, and lead solder for pickups. Pure bureaucratic BS.
Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
:friday:
:friday:
:friday:
:friday:
AudioWonderland
New member
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
Unfortunately Frank, this is the kind of focus group question that IS floated when companies are trying to gauge the impact of such a move. I have been part of many vision and planning meetings. In my experience if it gets discussed there it means at least some faction of management thinks its a good idea which why the idea is floated in the first place. Given the amount of outsourcing we have already seen in the musical instrument and other business' I don't think its unfair for people to infer that SD was considering such a move.
Now, if you wanted to start a facility in say Germany for example to better supply and service the european market I suspect that would be accepted with a lot less acrimony as it would not be seen as a bean counter move and the Germans are known for their craftsmanship. Unfortunately their would still be a group that insists the California versions were better. Thats just the nature of gear hounds on the net.
I think a more important question to consider is fixing your distribution network. The box stores around here carry about six duncans total and there isn't a single coil to be found. They pushed out the killer mom and pop that carried a reasonable selection and did a nice job for you and are now not representing your product worth a damn. I understand why in the past you have chosen to support them by not selling direct and competing against them but frankly they are not living up tio their end of that bargan from where I sit.
Unfortunately Frank, this is the kind of focus group question that IS floated when companies are trying to gauge the impact of such a move. I have been part of many vision and planning meetings. In my experience if it gets discussed there it means at least some faction of management thinks its a good idea which why the idea is floated in the first place. Given the amount of outsourcing we have already seen in the musical instrument and other business' I don't think its unfair for people to infer that SD was considering such a move.
Now, if you wanted to start a facility in say Germany for example to better supply and service the european market I suspect that would be accepted with a lot less acrimony as it would not be seen as a bean counter move and the Germans are known for their craftsmanship. Unfortunately their would still be a group that insists the California versions were better. Thats just the nature of gear hounds on the net.
I think a more important question to consider is fixing your distribution network. The box stores around here carry about six duncans total and there isn't a single coil to be found. They pushed out the killer mom and pop that carried a reasonable selection and did a nice job for you and are now not representing your product worth a damn. I understand why in the past you have chosen to support them by not selling direct and competing against them but frankly they are not living up tio their end of that bargan from where I sit.
stevie_bees
Cat In The Hatministrator
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
Living outside of the US, I can say that the origins of the products are less important to me than the company that is making it. The Seymour Duncan company has built a solid, family-orientated reputation over its 35 years and I'm not too concerned whether it's a US-built pickup or a Chinese-built stompbox. It's the care that goes in to developing the products that makes the difference, that and the fact that the company really listens to its customers.
Living outside of the US, I can say that the origins of the products are less important to me than the company that is making it. The Seymour Duncan company has built a solid, family-orientated reputation over its 35 years and I'm not too concerned whether it's a US-built pickup or a Chinese-built stompbox. It's the care that goes in to developing the products that makes the difference, that and the fact that the company really listens to its customers.
J
Jessie's ghost
Guest
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
Evan, did I mention we've got a card table set for the kids, in the next room?
Evan, did I mention we've got a card table set for the kids, in the next room?
Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
http://www.seymourduncan.com/company/jobs/
http://www.seymourduncan.com/company/jobs/
pinto79
New member
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups? (Part II)
Made in USA means to me that a company cares about more than maximum profit from minimum investment.
As a guitar builder in Canada, I have made a distinct decision that the parts and pickups that are used to build my guitars and repair my customers' guitars come only from countries that don't exploit their work force. Up til now, I've built guitars with pickups from Seymour Duncan and DiMarzio, bridges from Hipshot, Gotoh and Schaller, tuning machines from Sperzel and Gotoh among others. When a customer wants to trim the cost of the guitar he's wanting to buy from me, I'll suggest a less exotic wood or less costly finishing process or a less expensive version of something (ie Gotoh made Floyd Rose bridge compared to an OFR). I won't even offer a "cheap" alternative.
These things are important to me, so I would hope that they are important to the companies I buy from.
I've been to the factory in Santa Barbara and when Even took my wife and I out into the production area, we saw many people working away at various stations on all kinds of pickups. There was a feeling of happiness in that room. That air of happiness comes only from a group of people with the same goal, who honestly enjoy what they are doing. I don't care how many QA inspectors you have, when you've got a group of people happy about doing anything, they will produce a better product.
I'm not having a great word day, so I hope that makes sense to everyone. For what it's worth, I vote for production to stay in Cali.
Made in USA means to me that a company cares about more than maximum profit from minimum investment.
As a guitar builder in Canada, I have made a distinct decision that the parts and pickups that are used to build my guitars and repair my customers' guitars come only from countries that don't exploit their work force. Up til now, I've built guitars with pickups from Seymour Duncan and DiMarzio, bridges from Hipshot, Gotoh and Schaller, tuning machines from Sperzel and Gotoh among others. When a customer wants to trim the cost of the guitar he's wanting to buy from me, I'll suggest a less exotic wood or less costly finishing process or a less expensive version of something (ie Gotoh made Floyd Rose bridge compared to an OFR). I won't even offer a "cheap" alternative.
These things are important to me, so I would hope that they are important to the companies I buy from.
I've been to the factory in Santa Barbara and when Even took my wife and I out into the production area, we saw many people working away at various stations on all kinds of pickups. There was a feeling of happiness in that room. That air of happiness comes only from a group of people with the same goal, who honestly enjoy what they are doing. I don't care how many QA inspectors you have, when you've got a group of people happy about doing anything, they will produce a better product.
I'm not having a great word day, so I hope that makes sense to everyone. For what it's worth, I vote for production to stay in Cali.
Similar threads
- Featured
