What makes the X2N so hot?

[Rex_Rocker]

I mean, it's wound pretty hot at 15K-ish. But there are other pickups wound hotter. Even in the DiMarzio lineup there's the Super 3 which has the exact same single oversized ceramic magnet (I'm assuming), and it has higher DCR, yet it's not listed as hot.

I'm curious because it amazes me that it's almost as hot as my BW IME, yet it has like half as much ceramic in it, and it's lower DCR (TBH, it also amazes me that the Super 2 is a bit louder than the Distortion Neck, yet it's much lower DCR).

So what kind of wizardry is going on with the X2N? Anyone know? Are they using a different grade of ceramic for some pickups or something?

 

[Masta' C]

Your issue here is that you're thinking DCR = Output

Unless you're comparing pickups with identical construction, coil geometry, and wire gauge/type, the association between DCR and "output" isn't an accurate way to assess pickups

BTW, I don't know about the X2N specifically, but the biggest difference likely has to do with wire gauge, as well as the two large "rail" poles increasing inductance

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Your issue here is that you're thinking DCR = Output

No, I understand that DCR does not equal output.

That's the thing. The X2N I'd be willing to bet it's the same 44 gauge wire as the BW. Maybe different insulation, but does that make that MASSIVE difference in output? And the X2N also has less actual magnet than the BW (single oversized ceramic on the X2N vs. triple ceramic on the BW). What I'm wondering is what is the factor that makes the X2N punch as hard as the Winter when it has less magnetic mass and less copper in the coils.

as well as the two large "rail" poles increasing inductance

Maybe that's what making such a big difference?

 

[freefrog]

Big wide rails increase its inductance and magnetic field. Far memories also suggest me that the alloy used for these rails is very efficient magnetically.

EDIT - Last but not least, a same mag can be more or less charged. I've already measured 33% more output voltage from HB's hosting fully charged magnets.

 

[Masta' C]

The X2N I'd be willing to bet it's the same 44 gauge wire as the BW. Maybe different insulation, but does that make that MASSIVE difference in output? And the X2N also has less actual magnet than the BW (single oversized ceramic on the X2N vs. triple ceramic on the BW). What I'm wondering is what is the factor that makes the X2N punch as hard as the Winter when it has less magnetic mass and less copper in the coils. Maybe that's what making such a big difference?

You're pretty much comparing apples to oranges without realizing it. Even within the "44 gauge" wire category, assuming that's actually what both use, there are a lot of variables that DO make a difference...insulation thickness, min-nom vs nom-max, etc.

We already know that the baseplate materials are different, the pole piece design is drastically different, and that DiMarzio's coils are sized a bit differently than Duncan's. That's before considering that not all "Ceramic" mags are the same and magnet charges can differ, that DiMarzio likely uses a different wire tension, how the wire is actually wound on the coils, and the fact that the alloy used for those rails is probably very different from anything Duncan uses.

It's hard enough to compare one very similar Duncan to another, but when we're discussing Duncan vs DiMarzio, it becomes a bit of a guessing game, really.

 

[idsnowdog]

It also has three double thick ceramic magnets.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

It also has three double thick ceramic magnets.

Nope, just one. At least mine does.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

You're pretty much comparing apples to oranges without realizing it. Even within the "44 gauge" wire category, assuming that's actually what both use, there are a lot of variables that DO make a difference...insulation thickness, min-nom vs nom-max, etc.

We already know that the baseplate materials are different, the pole piece design is drastically different, and that DiMarzio's coils are sized a bit differently than Duncan's. That's before considering that not all "Ceramic" mags are the same and magnet charges can differ, that DiMarzio likely uses a different wire tension, how the wire is actually wound on the coils, and the fact that the alloy used for those rails is probably very different from anything Duncan uses.

It's hard enough to compare one very similar Duncan to another, but when we're discussing Duncan vs DiMarzio, it becomes a bit of a guessing game, really.

That's exactly what I needed to read, I guess. Forgot about the brass baseplate and the different coil dimensions. I mean, I obviously knew about the rails, but wondered about the rest.

 

[Demanic]

I'd like to try a stainless steel baseplate in one, just to hear if it would give it more sizzle.

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[formula73]

I'd like to try a stainless steel baseplate in one, just to hear if it would give it more sizzle.

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Guaranteed. The new ones with brass baseplates sound like muffled versions of the originals that had nickel silver.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I don't think mine lacks high-end. It's not really brighter than my Black Winter, because it doesn't have the same upper-mid push, and it has more bottom-end girth, but there's definitely some sizzle up top.

I don't remember who described it to me as "more of a full-range pickup" compared to the BW here in these forum to me, but I think that description is perfect.

 

[freefrog]

For the record, brass baseplates contribute to eddy currents, which are most probably very strong in such a model with so big magnetic poles... and eddy currents can make the sound rounder / flatter / apparently more "wide-range" OR less distinct ("muffled"), depending on the rest of the design + the overall circuit used. That's the "magic" of passive transducers to sound differently according to the context, even when they have a strong character like a X2N.

Anecdotically, I wonder about the AWG used in a X2N. Someone who rewound one of these mentioned somewhere 7000 turns of AWG 43 per bobbin but the current DiMarzio specs state an overall DCR of almost 16k, suggesting a change for a higher AWG / thinner wire.

Anyway, I've realized that my previous answer was paraphrasing what DM says in his description: "The magnetic field of the X2N® is very powerful and focused". I've found an archived note stating that it uses Ceramic 8 for that.

I'd be curious to know its measured inductance, knowing that it's the second physical reality effectively making a pickup "hot" (other factors than magnetism and inductance either contribute to these two things, either have other effects than hotness).
My friend winder, now retired, had designed a regular sized HB of 16,3k with an enormous inductance of 11H and which was not far from the X2N output wise. But it was a lot clearer sounding thx to a careful tuning of... eddy currents.

 

[dave74]

If one wants the X2N to be slightly clearer you can always use 1meg pots, or just a single 500k volume with no tone which is how I have it in my rg2570 (basswood).

 

[bigcupholder]

For the record, brass baseplates contribute to eddy currents, which are most probably very strong in such a model with so big magnetic poles... and eddy currents can make the sound rounder / flatter / apparently more "wide-range" OR less distinct ("muffled"), depending on the rest of the design + the overall circuit used. That's the "magic" of passive transducers to sound differently according to the context, even when they have a strong character like a X2N.

Anecdotically, I wonder about the AWG used in a X2N. Someone who rewound one of these mentioned somewhere 7000 turns of AWG 43 per bobbin but the current DiMarzio specs state an overall DCR of almost 16k, suggesting a change for a higher AWG / thinner wire.

Anyway, I've realized that my previous answer was paraphrasing what DM says in his description: "The magnetic field of the X2N� is very powerful and focused". I've found an archived note stating that it uses Ceramic 8 for that.

I'd be curious to know its measured inductance, knowing that it's the second physical reality effectively making a pickup "hot" (other factors than magnetism and inductance either contribute to these two things, either have other effects than hotness).
My friend winder, now retired, had designed a regular sized HB of 16,3k with an enormous inductance of 11H and which was not far from the X2N output wise. But it was a lot clearer sounding thx to a careful tuning of... eddy currents.

If someone wanted to really go overboard avoiding eddy currents while still maximizing for inductance, they could replace the big rails with lots of really thin rails stacked together with a thin insulation on each. That's standard practice for large power transformers - the core is made up of thousands of paper-thin steel sheets.

I don't know how that affects the tone, if minimizing eddy currents to that extent would even be a good thing, but it's possible.

Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk

 

[Aceman]

a single 500k volume with no tone which is how I have it in my rg2570 (basswood).

That's the config in my FU Kitty Strat. More than bright enough...

 

[nexion218]

Correct me if I'm talking out of the wazoo here, but I guess the way a given pickup emphasizes certain frequencies contributes to the percieved hotness too. E.g. the Nazgûl - if I remember well - based purely on specs is not THAT hot, but the way it's "EQ'd" makes it sound sizzling and boiling.

 

[freefrog]

If someone wanted to really go overboard avoiding eddy currents while still maximizing for inductance, they could replace the big rails with lots of really thin rails stacked together with a thin insulation on each. That's standard practice for large power transformers - the core is made up of thousands of paper-thin steel sheets.

I don't know how that affects the tone, if minimizing eddy currents to that extent would even be a good thing, but it's possible.

Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk

Thx for sharing!

I think to have read Mike Sulzer (?) about that.

The Australian winder Kinman doesn't use laminated poles but makes laminated cores for his hum-cancelling coils on the basis of this principle, too...

Bill Lawrence was just avoiding baseplates and mounting very thin rails. Not paper thin but not thick either. It did work too and contributes to the sonic character of L500's IMHO and understanding...

Back to work now. I wish you all a nice day!

 

[ToneFiddler]

i think the effect is similar from a filtertron to a supertron.
the tv jones neck versions are more or less identical except for rails instead of pole pieces. the supertron is louder and fatter.