What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

the guy who invented fire said:
actually they go for over $250k now!

Well....$250K is over $100K. :laugh2:

They're not worth that kind of money. IMO, no electric guitar is.

The finest electric guitar on the planet is still just a boat paddle compared to a fine Pre WW-II Martin or D'Angelico or Stradavarius.
 
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Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

Craig Anderton is convinced that a big part of it is the finish -- not because it's thin per se, but because aging has made it brittle and therefore more resonant.

I don't know for sure and was totally skeptical until I noticed one day how just this nearly microsopic wisp of cloth (about 2 strands of the fabric that looked 10 times thinner than pickup coil wire) sitting on one of my strings almost completely dampened it. So I think Anderton may be on to something.

I know you weren't looking for "aging" reasons but keep in mind that in the 60's, they didn't have the modern LP's to compare to so it's possible that they sounded more or less like 10-year old Historics at the time. Or if you could take one of the better Historics back in time and leave it there and let it age 50 years, would it sound like a burst does now?

We'll never know.
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

Lewguitar said:
Well....$250K is over $100K. :laugh2:
They're not worth that kind of money. IMO, no electric guitar is.
The finest electric guitar on the planet is still just a boat paddle compared to a fine Pre WW-II Martin or D'Angelico or Stradavarius.

I agree on all points!
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

the guy who invented fire said:
I agree on all points!

Well, that's why we get along so well Christian!:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

Lewguitar said:
Well, that's why we get along so well Christian!:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:


True...

So let me ask, since you brought it up, I know you have had some fine Electric guitars, including these prized late 50's Les Pauls but have you ever owned a pre war Martin???
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

the guy who invented fire said:
True...

So let me ask, since you brought it up, I know you have had some fine Electric guitars, including these prized late 50's Les Pauls but have you ever owned a pre war Martin???

No. :chairfall

Nope, the oldest guitar I've ever owned is my '29 or '30 National Style O resonator.
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

I know you're a big fan of Taylor acoustics but have you even spent any time with a Prewar Martin or for that matter a recent Vintage Style Martin???
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

Back in my bass playing days (looong time ago) one of our guitar players had two Les Pauls; a 1970 and a 1959. He rarely took the '59 out but brought it to rehersal one day so I could see "what the big deal was." Plugged the '70 into his amp, played for a bit and it sounded great. Then without changing the amp settings he plugged the '59 in. Oh my God!! "KA-RUNCH, KA-RUNCH!!!" Night and day diffearance. That '59 smacked you along the side of your head like I've never heard or felt since.
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

It's a little known fact that in the 50s Gibson mixed the oil from a Kudzu plant in their paint. That's the key ingredient.










I don't know either.


I agree that you won't get the LP sound with a bolt-on neck. If you do everything else, though, you should end up with a nice sounding guitar.
 
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Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

I remember reading somewhere, maybe this forum, that some real high end violin makers set out to make exact copies of the finest of old violins. They apparently got real close, wood moisture content, density etc, and the only thing that they couldn't get right was the aged (100's of years) varnish. Though the new ones were close they felt the difference was the finish.
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

the guy who invented fire said:
I know you're a big fan of Taylor acoustics but have you even spent any time with a Prewar Martin or for that matter a recent Vintage Style Martin???

Sure! I own a Martin OOO-28HD. It's a recreation of a pre WW-II Martin with scallop bracing, etc. Basically a 000 or OM style guitar like the one Clapton plays with the appointments of a 30's D-28. It's a wonderful guitar. I was able to pick it out from three that came in and mine is the one the owner of the Uncle Kits Pickin' Parlour had set aside for himself.

IMO, the only acoustics I've played that I liked as much or maybe better than my Martin OOO-28HD were those from Collings and Goodall. I like mine better than any Santa Cruz I've played although Santa Cruz gets lumped into that rarified atmosphere enjoyed by Collings and Goodall too.

lew
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

the guy who invented fire said:
actually they go for over $250k now!
I've heard of '59s going for like $350k. Talk about rediculous.

I agree with Gearjoneser's assessment to a T.
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

These guitars were sounding amazing when they were only five or six years old. This works against aging of the componants, including the finish, as being the primary reason. It's got to be mostly the quality of the woods right from the start IMO. I also support the view that Brazilian rosewood can help produce superior tone, too. At least that has been my observation on fairly new guitars as well. Additionaly, I've read that Paul Reed Smith is of the opinion that the pots were far superior to what's available today.
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

This is a great thread, and I love reading the thoughts and observations of the group here.

A lot of this reminds me of a short (in TV time) segment on CBS 60 Minutes about Stradivarius violins. Relatively few were ever produced and they have been studied by the worlds greatest authorities for generations. The show aired around 1980, yet an audio comparison between a "Strad", and another fine violin rendered more sweetness, focus and clarity...even through the 2-1/2" mono Zenith TV speaker I heard it through.

I have also heard that 20% of the time master violin makers use, is spent sharpening the instruments used to create the violin. Sharp edges on the tools used to carve a violin's surfaces must lead to more open and resonant tops and backs by design.

Spruce is a wonderwood! I have heard good sounding examples of steel string acoustic guitars with spruce tops improve markedly in five years time!

I forget where I heard this, but I remember an acoustic builder saying: "To build an electric guitar...skip the first 200 steps"! :amish:

There is mojo in wood, and the artistry and science of craftsmen I will never fully understand. It is true, regardless.
 
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Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

Lewguitar said:
I've never sold a guitar I loved and would rather keep than sell. I rarely play my Les Paul although it's a great one. I'm a Tele and Strat guy...actually, lately I've been playing alot of diatonic autoharp!

The most I ever got for a real '59 Burst ( mine looked just like Mike Bloomfield's ) was less than $1000. That would've been about 1970 and I sold it to a guy in New York from an ad I placed in a brand new magazine called Rolling Stone! :)

They go for over $100K now...

lew
I know,doesn`t it bother you sometimes to know what you could get for it today:yell:
Maby this was a stupid question,you couldn`t know that back then:)
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

Lewguitar said:
Great woods, very small production runs in the 50's compared to the way guitars are cranked out by the zillions today and, IMO, BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD fingerboards.

Brazilian really does sound more complex compared to Indian Rosewood and has a unique tone that we recognize as "vintage".

Lew

I agree with this. I think the Brazilian boards are crucial. I think a lot of the 2003 Historics with BRW boards that I played had that sound of the old guitars.

I think the new guitars are using Madagascar RW, and these are beautiful, dense, and seem to have a bit brighter tone as well.

Bill
 
Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

I'll add that I now have four LPs, and just bought a new '58 plaintop Historic Standard this weekend. Other than needing some minor nut work, it is an incredible guitar. I notice that it has more resonance than my two LP 1960 Classic Premium Plus guitars from 1996 and 1997. I recently mounted Antiquitys in one and the MF 50th Anniversary Seths in the other. There is a hugh difference in the factory pots between these guitars and those in the Historic, so an RS kit or two may be in my near future.

You can debate neck tenons, pickups and the differences in the decals until you are blue in the face, but the Historic LPs have a mojo that the Gibson USA models do not have. I missed out on buying the real-deal Pauls that I saw in pawnshops for $200 back in the mid-1960s, when I was learning to play. Oh, well, 20/20 hindsight.

And even though I think my modded Classics capture 90-95% of the Historics' mojo, (and they are fine guitars in their own right, make no mistake) I'm really glad to have joined the Gibosn Historic club.

++++++++++++++

Martin has a 183 year history of building guitars...with that kind of longevity, they've had many "Golden Eras". I truly believe that they've been building some of the best guitars in their history of late. Many of the Limited, Special and Signature Edition guitars are exquisite pieces. Their Golden Era and Marquis guitars, which are an attempt to "build them the way we used to", may not be totally historically accurate in every detail; yet they are exceedingly fine guitars. Their new D-18 Authentic 1937 is a guitar of astonishing power and projection. Yep, it is expensive as-all-get-out--and probably worth every penny to those artists who crave tthe tone and feel of such an ultra-responsive intrument at their fingertips.

Still, for the the rest of us, I don't think there is a better value on the acoustic guitar market than the Standard Series D-28. (Feel free to substitute "D-18" in that last sentence if you're a Mahogany Fanatic!) Nobody makes a guitar for that price that has the tone, the cachet, the charisma, the sensuality of a simple D-28. You can spend a lot more on a guitar from a small builder, and maybe even have a better guitar. But there's somenthing about a Martin, something undefinable that many players never understand--until after they've bought their first Martin. And there's been many an estate battle fought over who gets Granddad's, or Dad's, old Martin.

I've played a few pre-war Martins; several from the Forties and Fifities; and probably hundreds from the Sixties and Seventies. A BRW D-28 from the 40s, 50s or 60s is a formidable guitar, indeed. You might not get that tone from a modern Indian RW instrument; but in all honesty, I truly believe that the modern Martin is probably better made than those guitars were.

Time wil tell.

Bill
 
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Re: What Makes Vintage Les Pauls Sound So Good?

shredaholic said:
The reason I ask this is because I'm planning to build a Warmoth LP, mainly to bypass QC issues, get more guitar for my money (LP's are so damn expensive here) and get the satisfaction of having a great sounding guitar that I've designed/assembled/painted myself.

The two main things I know I'm going for looking at the Warmoth options are the Brazillian Rosewood fretboard and a one piece mahogany body under that 2 piece maple top. Every thing else (obviously aside from the bolt-on neck) I'd like to be what it needs to be to get that 'sound'. I'm aware I won't get 100% exact because of the bolt-on, but as a great sounding guitar is the sum of it's parts, hopefully getting everything else made great would equal a great sounding guitar.

Brazillian Rosewood is an endangered species no longer xut, therefore exported out of Brazil.

Warmoth does have a lot of hype, IMHO
 
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