What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

[C-Martin]

I love strats and been wanting a true to vintage spec Strat for years. I tried an original '59 long ago and thought it was the most amazing thing I had ever played and been wanting something like it ever since. I can't really afford a Fender Custom shop or AVRI at the moment so I recently acquired a Classic Lacquered 60's strat, some of you may have seen it on my NGD thread. I've never quite bonded with any MIM I've tried, but this thing sounds and feels great to me. It's really fun and inspiring to play, love the feel and look of the lacquer, I completely forget that it's a MIM when playing it.

I am not sure what kind of pickups are in there. From what I read they are "vintage style single coils" with Alnico V magnets, but there isn't much info other than that. They're not bad, they definitely get the job done but I find them a bit lacking compared to the Antiquity and other pickups I've tried over the years.

I would like to get the guitar to be as close to a vintage 1960 Strat as possible (And I mean specifically 59-60, not 60s in general). I was thinking about getting Surfers, but I already have a Strat with those and thought I'd try something else. Although they are my favorite single coils, I found out that a 1960 strat pickups were black bottoms and Surfers are grey bottom. What would be the difference in tone compared to "black bottom" single coils, and does Seymour make any custom shop version that are period correct? Or maybe there's a Fender Custom Shop model I should look at?

I know some people might say not to worry about these details, but the whole point of this project would be to try and capture something like a Reissue's accuracy. I'll be doing some minor upgrades, like a steel term block, "Pat. pen" saddles, maybe even a custom neck plate with 5 digits to complete the look. I've never sold any of my guitars, so I'm not worried about resale value. I just want to capture the look, sound and feel of that one vintage strat until I can finally afford one or a custom shop, because you can never have too many strats

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

The Antiquity 1 series are supposed to be 50s. The alnico 2 Texas Hots sound pretty authentic to me and very different from the surfers.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but maybe think a little less "what would a 1960 Strat have" and a little more "what would make this guitar sound great". You've got Sufers which are a pretty strong vintage style Strat pickup, what if you gave something like Lollar Blondes a shot? (The Texas Hots, while not historically accurate may also be a nice contrast from your Surfer Strat)

If you really want the 1960 thing, there is a set of Custom Shop Strat pickups available only in the Custom Shop 1960 Strat, and they come up on the used market every so often.

 

[AlexR]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

Several small winders do 1959-1960 sets. You will really have to investigate the more boutique side of things if you are keen on a certain year, as even the smallest of the major players isn't specific enough to break it down that far.

 

[freefrog]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

I would like to get the guitar to be as close to a vintage 1960 Strat as possible (And I mean specifically 59-60, not 60s in general).

AFAIK, Klein is the only pickups builder to sell pickups associated to precise years. You could also ask to some custom shop or boutique winder to base a set on the specs mentioned in the chart available here: http://www.guitarhq.com/pickups.html ... it's an averaging synthesis of the measurements done by Seymour humself, if memory serves me.

Now, let me share a few thoughts...

Right now I've here a real 1962 Strat (the one that I take in maintenance once a year: its owner is a pro musician and is not tactful with his guitars).
-the three pickups of this Strat have different specs and none of them exhibits the 6.22k mentioned in the chart above;
-when I look to these pickups, I've the feeling that they don't come from the same batch/year, for some reasons that I won't mention here;
-its magnets have a Gauss level that I've never measured on any other Strat pickup, vintage repro's and boutique models included;
-consequently, its sound is something special too: I've still to find a set of vintage Strat clones with exactly the same specs and "toneprint";
-anyway, I know that mounting the vintage pickguard on another Strat would give a different result... And when I think of the real 63 Strat owned by another lucky friend of mine, I remember that this one has a noticeably different tone (the 63 is thicker with some "hair" in the sound absent in the 62 and it's not a question of year IMHO)...

The conclusion belongs to you. Good luck in your quest!

 

[C-Martin]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

The Antiquity 1 series are supposed to be 50s. The alnico 2 Texas Hots sound pretty authentic to me and very different from the surfers.

I am a bit wary of Alnico 2 in single coils. The ones I've tried before just didn't do it for me, something in the mids just doesn't do what I want a single coil to do. But I've never tried Antiquity I's, I'll try to find some demos to hear them in action.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but maybe think a little less "what would a 1960 Strat have" and a little more "what would make this guitar sound great". You've got Sufers which are a pretty strong vintage style Strat pickup, what if you gave something like Lollar Blondes a shot? (The Texas Hots, while not historically accurate may also be a nice contrast from your Surfer Strat)

If you really want the 1960 thing, there is a set of Custom Shop Strat pickups available only in the Custom Shop 1960 Strat, and they come up on the used market every so often.

Several small winders do 1959-1960 sets. You will really have to investigate the more boutique side of things if you are keen on a certain year, as even the smallest of the major players isn't specific enough to break it down that far.

If there isn't anything like what I'm looking for and have to go boutique, I will just go with my original plan and save for a set of Surfers. As I said, I already have a set of those in a Strat and love them. I just figured I'd see if I can find something more specific just for fun, in tribute to that old '59 i was lucky enough to try.

I did see a couple of Fender Custom Shop 1960 loaded pickguard's floating on eBay. I don't i need the whole assembly, but I'll keep those in mind if they're good. They're priced a bit more than what a set of surfers would cost though.

I also found these, and they seem more affordable than custom shop pickups. Wouldn't mind not spending custom shop money. Anyone tried these?

http://intl.fender.com/en-CA/guitar...-vintage-59-strat-pickup-set-vintage-white-3/

 

[C-Martin]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

AFAIK, Klein is the only pickups builder to sell pickups associated to precise years. You could also ask to some custom shop or boutique winder to base a set on the specs mentioned in the chart available here: http://www.guitarhq.com/pickups.html ... it's an averaging synthesis of the measurements done by Seymour humself, if memory serves me.

Now, let me share a few thoughts...

Right now I've here a real 1962 Strat (the one that I take in maintenance once a year: its owner is a pro musician and is not tactful with his guitars).
-the three pickups of this Strat have different specs and none of them exhibits the 6.22k mentioned in the chart above;
-when I look to these pickups, I've the feeling that they don't come from the same batch/year, for some reasons that I won't mention here;
-its magnets have a Gauss level that I've never measured on any other Strat pickup, vintage repro's and boutique models included;
-consequently, its sound is something special too: I've still to find a set of vintage Strat clones with exactly the same specs and "toneprint";
-anyway, I know that mounting the vintage pickguard on another Strat would give a different result... And when I think of the real 63 Strat owned by another lucky friend of mine, I remember that this one has a noticeably different tone (the 63 is thicker with some "hair" in the sound absent in the 62 and it's not a question of year IMHO)...

The conclusion belongs to you. Good luck in your quest!

Cool stuff, thanks for the info!

 

[AlexR]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

The big winders will do a generic single. In fact Duncan has quite a large K reading gap from what they do to typical Fender readings. Now of course K isn't output or tone, but I've had both Ant sets and neither gave me the chime I was expecting......chime that I got from a Fender Fat 50's set that immediately replaced the Surfer set in the strat I had at the time.

I have had a nice 1959 set from Chevalier pickups. Pretty nice and aggressive really.

Look at this website:
http://www.guitarhq.com/pickups.html

You could probably get away with a 1962 oriented set as the (very) average specs for both years seem similar.

If that seems ok, then the D.Allen Tru 62 set could come into play.

You could also splash out on a Zhangbucker Pure Handwound Refin set. I've just got a neck pickup as the PH and the rest as regular. Its I'd say the best strat set I have for a really deep tone.

 

[thanaton]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

AFAIK, Klein is the only pickups builder to sell pickups associated to precise years. You could also ask to some custom shop or boutique winder to base a set on the specs mentioned in the chart available here: http://www.guitarhq.com/pickups.html ... it's an averaging synthesis of the measurements done by Seymour humself, if memory serves me.

There's an important distinction to be made here, it says "The following table shows Stratocaster pickup specs from 1954 to 1967" , but these are not, in fact, "specs", this is a survey.

The question to be asked is, at the start of each new year did Leo Fender ask his pickup winders to do something different? Between the years '54 and '64 the DC resistance and wind counts observed in samples bounces all over the place, therefore it's reasonable to conclude that there was no specific direction given that varied over time, let alone on an annual basis. The only thing that appears to be specific is the polarity, and I bet that has more to do with the process for charging the AlNiCo pole pieces, rather than a deliberate intention to have all their pickups being either north up or south up.

It's safe to say that just about any fiber flatwork Strat pickup with forvar and a DC resistance between 5.7k and 6.4k would be representative of any given year within that period. The SSL-1's look the part, but at 6.5k ohms, they seem to be wound higher than any in that survey. The Fender Fat 50's set comes in around 6.0k, that's probably a good way to go.

 

[AlexR]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

^ Specs or survey, the distinction is meaningless.

They are what has been observed on average in real pickups. Whether or not there was instruction behind it is utterly irrelevant.

 

[C-Martin]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

I don't think I've ever tried a Strat with Fat 50's, keep reading a lot of good things about them though.

 

[freefrog]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

Post scriptum to my previous answer:

1-I've measured on SSL1's exactly the same inductance than on the 6k mid pickup of the real 62 Strat mentioned: 2.6H. So, the old trusty SSL1 (my favorite Duncan single coil) is not necessarily off when it comes to cloning accuracy, whatever is its DCR.
2-Current Fender machine wound models are certainly good useable pickups (I've several of them in a few guitars ) but none of them mimics faithfully the L series transducers that I've here; even with the same DCR, inductance and measured resonant peaks, recent Fender pickups are louder, generate fewer harmonics and have a different ADSR envelope.
IME/IMHO, hand wound models are most often closer to "the real thing" (whose pickups were hand wound). YMMV...

 

[thanaton]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

"Spec", or "specification" literally imparts "specific", or "specified", meaning someone said "this pickups are supposed to be this way", but the clear randomness of the surveyed data show that there is almost nothing "specific" about Fender pickups between 1954 and 1964, so it's misleading to consumers, and to OP, to suggest that there was something "specific" about each them, aside from the wire insulation and magnetic polarity.

The most important thing about the "Tru 62" is that it has a name that rhymes.

 

[C-Martin]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

So there's never really been a specific change made to the pickups each year? Kind of like how PAF's where all different even within the same year?

I was under the impression that Leo had a "Change to improve, not just for the sake of changing" philosophy. It came up quite a few times when watching custom shop or documentary videos about the early Stratocaster designs.

 

[thanaton]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

So there's never really been a specific change made to the pickups each year? Kind of like how PAF's where all different even within the same year?

I was under the impression that Leo had a "Change to improve, not just for the sake of changing" philosophy. It came up quite a few times when watching custom shop or documentary videos about the early Stratocaster designs.

Prior to the early 60's, they didn't even use counters, they just went for a rough target DC resistance, so they were all over the place. Fender got machine winders with counters in the early 60's, and then they experimented with wind count specs, but we don't know that they followed any sort of annual schedule. Initially, even the counters themselves weren't precise. They counted rotations of the motor pulley, which was not equivalent to the number of times the bobbin itself actually rotated.

 

[jeremy]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

i like the antiquity texas hots but i dont think they sound like a vintage fender strat pup, the surfers on the other hand sound very much like a strong set of vintage fender pups, they have a grey bottom but its just flatwork and doesnt effect the tone at all. the vintage correct thing would be to get three neck pups (same wind, same polarity) but people dont always like that setup since the bridge can be thin/bright. the surfer set with rw/rp middle and hotter bridge is a really good set of strat pups that would make most people who are looking for a good sounding set of strat pups in a vintage vein happy.

if you really want to get pups as close as possible to a 1959 strat then call the custom shop and they will wind you something, again they should be all the same polarity and wind. fender makes a set called the pure '59 but ive never heard them. the fat 50's are a fine set of pups too and my favorite of the modern fender pups ive spent time with

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

Prior to the early 60's, they didn't even use counters, they just went for a rough target DC resistance, so they were all over the place. Fender got machine winders with counters in the early 60's, and then they experimented with wind count specs, but we don't know that they followed any sort of annual schedule. Initially, even the counters themselves weren't precise. They counted rotations of the motor pulley, which was not equivalent to the number of times the bobbin itself actually rotated.

This is my understanding as well. Just because someone measured some pickups from a specific year doesn't mean all pickups from that year are the same spec. In fact, the first instruction was to fill the bobbin more or less, so different winders ended up with different turn counts and DCR numbers. Not to mention the pickup position was a craps shoot as well, you could have a hot neck, underwound middle and standard bridge conceivably. You can probably find 6.0k pickups in most years of pre-CBS production, but as the years went and more measurements were made, consistency went up.

What we have now is a bunch of winders that have explicit knowledge of what winding techniques and DCR create what tone and can tweak to your preference rather than just rolling the die. As mentioned, SSL-1 is hot on the vintage Strat continuum, but Seymour created it for people that wanted a certain tone for their Strat. (Most wanted hotter than Stock pickups, and the SSL-1 is a really good sounding Strat pickup)

With the multitudes of Strat pickups available now, everyone can get exactly what they want. ("Standard", overwound, underwound.... calibrated or same for each position... each winder's signature tone, etc.)

 

[C-Martin]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

This is my understanding as well. Just because someone measured some pickups from a specific year doesn't mean all pickups from that year are the same spec. In fact, the first instruction was to fill the bobbin more or less, so different winders ended up with different turn counts and DCR numbers. Not to mention the pickup position was a craps shoot as well, you could have a hot neck, underwound middle and standard bridge conceivably. You can probably find 6.0k pickups in most years of pre-CBS production, but as the years went and more measurements were made, consistency went up.

What we have now is a bunch of winders that have explicit knowledge of what winding techniques and DCR create what tone and can tweak to your preference rather than just rolling the die. As mentioned, SSL-1 is hot on the vintage Strat continuum, but Seymour created it for people that wanted a certain tone for their Strat. (Most wanted hotter than Stock pickups, and the SSL-1 is a really good sounding Strat pickup)

With the multitudes of Strat pickups available now, everyone can get exactly what they want. ("Standard", overwound, underwound.... calibrated or same for each position... each winder's signature tone, etc.)

Hmmmm then i guess what I'm looking would be something in the "low output" 6k- range, like the surfers, because i like that tone. Something very responsive to pick attack and volume knob, i also play with the tone knob quite a bit. Maybe have RWRP middle, because i like to go pretty high gain sometimes but don't want to go noiseless. I already have a Strat that has a nice classic sound with the surfers, but doesn't quite do the Hendrix "Experience" tones quite how i want. Granted it's not a vintage styled Strat, so maybe I can look for that tone with this particular guitar. Maybe the Psychedelic set or CS69? I'm still intrigued by these "new" 56/59/65 set Fender came out with though, mainly because they seem to be easily found in the 120$ for a full set range.

 

[AlexR]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

"Spec", or "specification" literally imparts "specific", or "specified", meaning someone said "this pickups are supposed to be this way", but the clear randomness of the surveyed data show that there is almost nothing "specific" about Fender pickups between 1954 and 1964, so it's misleading to consumers, and to OP, to suggest that there was something "specific" about each them, aside from the wire insulation and magnetic polarity.

The most important thing about the "Tru 62" is that it has a name that rhymes.

Once again, we get to the real world and your distinction becomes meaningless.
Irrespective of whatever you might think, this average is what occurred. If I want to duplicate a pickup from a certain era I look at what was actually produced.

Like what D.Allen did with his Tru 62's

 

[thanaton]

Re: What pickups for a 1960 Stratocaster project

We don't know what the sample size was from which these averages were derived. That number is curiously omitted from the table. It might have been two pickups, it might have been a dozen. But we can make believe that it was a large, representative pool of data, if it's convenient to the point we're trying to make.