What pickups/wiring to use?

[DrDoug]

Hi! New to the forum, and I am looking at upgrading my pickups. I have settled on Seymour Duncan, but the assortment is still a bit mind boggling. Since I am willing to sink some bucks into what I want to do, I wish to get the best info available. So I come here to consult with those who have the experience.

I have a Peavey Patriot (Strat copy) with Tremolo and two single coil rail style pickups. The selector switch is Neck/Humbucking/Bridge. The neck & fretboard are in excellent condition, but I will still lightly top and recrown the frets. The action is real nice on it too. I use medium flat wound strings on it.

My playing style is rhythm with some lead (similar to what Steve Clark of Def Leppard did), but I want to be able to play both heavy and light (lots or no distortion/FX).

Question 1: Should I go with dual or triple Humbuckers? I am aware of the middle pup getting in the way of picking, but I have tried a friends axe with three on it and it was no problem for me.

Question 2: Do I need F spaced pup's, and if I do does the neck (or middle) pup need to be F spaced? I ask this as the strings taper together as they approach the nut (.15 inch from bridge to neck). I hear if you have the Fender style tremolo/bridge spacing, you need the F style. Or should I stick with the rail type pickup?

Question 3: What would be the best switch/pot arrangement for a triple pup setup? I have plenty of diagrams to choose from for a double pup arrangement, but there are few for a triple pup arrangement. I have one for the Gibson Ace Frehley triple pickup arrangement, but it seems awful limited in optional settings.

Any help I can get would be appreciated! I am getting a custom pickguard made, so I can pretty much gut the body as needed for extra pots, switches or a third pickup. If there is any more information I can give you that would help, please ask!

I want to give this guitar a new sound, shield everything and update the components. I have had it for almost twenty years, and it has been a good solid guitar.

Thanks!!!

 

[gunslinger]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Ok I have a hard time understanding your question. You say you have a three single coil size guitar? If the guitar has a tremolo yeah I'd go ahead and get 'F' spaced pickups. Single coil sized humbucking pickups would be quieter. They might even have more output. I'd wire them in series. You could go with a humbucker in the bridge and single coils at the middle and neck.

 

[DrDoug]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Sorry for the lack of clarity! It has two Peavey Super Ferrite single coil pickups that are connected through a three way switch (allowing me to select Neck, Humbucker (both pickups) or Bridge). The Peavey Super Ferrites are double the size of a normal single coil, so a single Humbucker would fit into each pickup hole in the pickguard. Since I am replacing the pickguard, I will be able to get it cut for double or triple pickups, plus I can size the new pickguard to fit four pots (currently has two pots, tone and vol) and whatever switch(es) I want.

So my question is, based on the knowledge of others here, should I stick with a double pickup setup (but put dual coil Humbuckers in each hole), or should I go with triple (dual coil) Humbuckers? Or would it be better to have double coil Humbuckers in the neck and bridge, and a single coil in the middle position? I am asking this here as I am hoping others who may have a triple pickup system on their guitar may give me any pros or cons about having them.

More importantly, what Seymour Duncan pickups would give me the sound I am looking for (best described as for a rhythm player and some lead playing, ala Steve Clark) playing material like Scorpions, Babies, Tesla, Great White but still being able to get a clean sound for playing with minimal FX. I know this is a tall order (trying to get recommendations without knowing my playing style), but I look at the pickups that are available, and I am lost. I have no idea what the various pickup models do, or any history behind them. Especially if I am going to end up with three pickups in the guitar. I would like to make sure I have a good set that will compliment each other.

I did read here last night that one person said that if the guitar has a tremolo, then to use F spaced at the bridge, and standard spacing at the neck. I used a caliper to check my overall string width, and it is 2.13 inches at the bridge, 2.02 inches at the neck and 2.09 inches at the middle position. Since the pickups on it are rail type, I have no reference point to compare with non-rail type pickups. I live in a rural area and the closest music store with what I need to look at is a 250 mile round trip from me. So I am trying to find out anything I can from people who have hands on experience with replacing pickups.

I hope this makes sense...lol! And thank you for your response!!! :bigok:

 

[Kokopelli]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

1) Go with dual humbuckers. Three will just get in the way of playing. Three pups means more magnets pointing at the strings reducing the string vibration. This could reduce sustain. In addition, the middle humbucker won't sound much different from the neck one. IMHO, I just don't see the need for the middle one, unless you have a single-coil there. Having a single-coil in the middle will give you more sound variety. For the sound you're after, I would recommend the Alnico-2-Pro for the neck. This is a sweet/warm pup that will balance out the "brightness" that tends to associate with a bolt-on guitar with trem. This pup will get you in the proximity of the sweet singing Slash territory. "Low output" pups tend to be the best for singing leads. The SD '59 and Pearly Gates would also be good for the neck. For the bridge and the type of rhythm your playing, you can't go wrong with the 3 Cs (Custom, Custom-5, or Custom-Custom). I would recommend the Custom-Custom for the bridge if you're after a thick/warm sound. The Custom bridge is more in-your-face and agressive. Personally, I prefer the Custom-5 because it's the "chimey-est" of the three. The C-5 also has scooped-mids which is well suited for the 80's metal sound. Although the C-5 might be "too bright and thin" with the trem.

2) Can't help you there

3) Can't help you with the 3-pup set up. Pot wise (for volume and tone), 1000K is the brightest, follow by 500K, then 250K. Capacitor wise, .015u is the brightest, follows by .022u, then .047u. Humbuckers (Gibson) tend to use 500K pots and .022u cap. Single-coils (Fender) tend to use 250K pots and .047u cap. However, you can always mix and match. Personally, I have .015u cap for the neck humbucker of my Les Paul.

I have a question for you - you mentioned that the pups you're replacing are Super Ferrites. I used to have a set of these, but one of them died. I would love to buy them from you if you have no need for them. Let me know what you think.

 

[Artie]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

I have a Patriot also. Great guitar. I strongly advise against the three pups. It isn't necessary. I've tried a lot of different combo's in mine. Its sorta my "experimental" guitar.

Here's what I'd do: Select two humbuckers. I'll leave the exact choice to others. There's a dozen good combo's. CC with a 59 works good, as does a Mayhem set if you want a little "heavier" sound.

My favorite wiring is to have it so that you have the normal neck and bridge in those two positions, but to do something different in the middle. And that is to have the stud coil of the bridge, in series with the screw coil of the neck. This gives you a "virtual" third humbucker. Here's the problem - that switch is very rare. I have one, but I've never seen another. Its something that I'm thinking about trying to produce, but that doesn't help you now.

You can achieve the same thing with a push-pull pot for now. There's really a lot of choices, but at the minimum, stick with a pair of humbuckers.

btw - Those Super Ferrittes are great sounding pups too. Kinda like "rail" P-90's.

 

[Travis]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Listen to Artie. When I have aquestion on wiring, he's the guy I go to first. Plus, he's got a Patriot (2 I thought). The best thing I can say is PLEASE, LISTEN TO THE MAN!!!

 

[Artie]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Thanks for the kind words Travis. I "sorta" have two Patriots. The Patriot and the Predator are the exact same guitar except that the Predator has a Kahler Flyer bridge and locking nut.

(It isn't like the newer Strat-ish Predators.)

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

I don't know much about the particular guitar but if you've just gotta have the classic cluck/quack Strat tones, it just ain't gonna happen without a middle pickup -- and a SINGLE coil middle pu (or at least a stack) at that.

But if you aren't looking for that cluck or quack, two humbuckers is fine.

 

[Artie]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

This is what the Patriot body looks like naked: (non-trem version)

Patriot_body.jpg

It would be a shame to chop up that middle section.

 

[DrDoug]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

WoW! Thanks for the tips everyone!

Kokopelli, I checked out the specs for the Pearly Gates, and it sounds like a good neck pickup. Just to make sure I am looking at the right one, it is referred to as the SH-PG1, right? I was able to find what I think you are referring to as the Custom-5, which I think is called the SH-14 Custom-5. Do I have those right? Could you tell me what the Custom and Custom-Customs are though? I can't find those ones..

Also, your info on the pots and caps and their relationship to sound is the answer to the question I had not considered asking...lol! It is great to have that info on hand for the rewire! Mine has the 250K pots in it now, with the Humbuckers it seems that the consensus is 500K pots for them. Any thoughts on that?

Regarding my (soon to be) old Super Ferrites, sure I can sell them to you. The neck one looks like new, and the same for the bridge pickup except for a tiny corner (bottom, rear edge, very thin) of it that the plastic is polished from brushing up against it while playing. They screws and springs are clean, no corrosion, and the threaded holes in the pickups are tight (I may have adjusted them twice in twenty years). Once I get the new pups ordered I will be happy to sell them if you are interested. I will desolder them so no wire will be cut off the pups, but I have no idea what they are worth.

My eBay name is im41ru2, and you are welcome to check my feedback and to even contact me through eBay to confirm it is me. I have one negative from a jerk that tried to rip me off on a hard drive, but PayPal refunded my money when I filed a complaint and sent them the junk he had sent me. I got my money, and we pegged each other with negative feedback. I think the 400+ positives more than show my honesty, and his 51 negatives speak for themselves. Most of my deals on eBay are purchases, but I have sold things in the past too, getting nothing but +'s from the buyers. Just FYI...

Travis, when someone has "Peaveyologist" as their title, they just might be someone worth listening to (for this Peavey owner!)...

ArtieToo, can you explain 'stud coil of the bridge' and 'screw coil of the neck'? I think I understand, but I want to make sure. I have the idea of using two push-pulls to switch each pickup, allowing me to select between a single coil or the Humbucker (both coils in that pup). Then use the three way switch on it now to select between neck, both or bridge pickups. Then each pickup goes to its own Vol/Tone pots and out to the jack. How about that for a wiring plan? The only question I would have is if I want to have both pickups in single coil (via the push-pull for each one), do I want to maintain a Humbucking function (between the two pickups when the three way switch is set to 'both'), or do I want them both in the same direction? I ask this as I have read about magnet flipping and whatnot, and before I wire it up I need to get this part clear. Thanks!!

Also, after looking at the scale and fit of the guitar, three double coils would be ungainly looking. I could go for the single coil Humbucker in the middle, but I think I will leave it at two doubles for now. Cutting into that wood you have pictured here might not be optimal for structural integrity.

Thanks for the help people!!! :smokin: Once I get the pup info narrowed down (the darn names!) I will order them. I was going to get them from Musicians Friend as they are the music shop 250 miles from me, and if I need to go there for whatever reason it would be better. Too bad it is not summer as it is a great ride on the motorcycle, though carrying the guitar on the bike can be a pain...lol!

Zhangliqun, thanks for that info but I will stick with a guitar that does not talk like a duck. Thanks for that info though! I am not a classic anything kind of guy, I am too much of a slacker...lol!

 

[Kokopelli]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Yup, you got the name of the pups correct!
PG is SH -PG1
Custom-5 is SH-14
Custom-Custom is SH-11
Custom is SH-5

Or you can contact Dave (Zangliqun) and he'll wind you anything that you want. I got a "custom wind" neck from Dave and I love it. Amazing tone + amazing customer service.

Hi Dave, I like your neck better than the Timbucker. Talk about flutey goodness!!!

Pots - you can pretty much do whatever you want. Generally speaking, Gibson pickups (p-90 & humbuckers) tend to have 500K pots, and Fender single-coils tend to have 250K pot. Once you have them in your guitar, if the sound is "dark" to you, then go to a higher K-pots and/or lower valued capacitors. You can also mix and match. My favorite set up has 500K pots with .015u cap for the neck humbucker, and 250K pots with .047u cap for the telecaster bridge.

As for the Super Ferrites - I'm in no hurry. When you're ready to sell, let me know and if the price is right, I'll bite!!! I generally prefer single coils to humbuckers.

 

[Artie]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Travis, when someone has "Peaveyologist" as their title, they just might be someone worth listening to (for this Peavey owner!)...

Just so you know, we don't get to pick our own titles. Forum admins do that at their fancy. However, I love mine.

ArtieToo, can you explain 'stud coil of the bridge' and 'screw coil of the neck'? I think I understand, but I want to make sure.

If you look at an uncovered humbucker, you'll see one coil has adjustable screws for polepieces while the other coil has non-adjustable studs. If you split to screw of one and stud of the other, they remain humbucking regardless of whether you connect them in series or parallel.

Here's a thread that shows some of the ways to do it:
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=48073

You really have a lot of otions with a 2-humbucker guitar. Tomorrow I'll outline a few different choices you have. There's a couple of new things I do that are a little different from conventional, that I love the sound of.

Artie

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Hi! New to the forum, and I am looking at upgrading my pickups. I have settled on Seymour Duncan, but the assortment is still a bit mind boggling. Since I am willing to sink some bucks into what I want to do, I wish to get the best info available. So I come here to consult with those who have the experience.

I have a Peavey Patriot (Strat copy) with Tremolo and two single coil rail style pickups. The selector switch is Neck/Humbucking/Bridge. The neck & fretboard are in excellent condition, but I will still lightly top and recrown the frets. The action is real nice on it too. I use medium flat wound strings on it.

My playing style is rhythm with some lead (similar to what Steve Clark of Def Leppard did), but I want to be able to play both heavy and light (lots or no distortion/FX).

Question 1: Should I go with dual or triple Humbuckers? I am aware of the middle pup getting in the way of picking, but I have tried a friends axe with three on it and it was no problem for me.

Question 2: Do I need F spaced pup's, and if I do does the neck (or middle) pup need to be F spaced? I ask this as the strings taper together as they approach the nut (.15 inch from bridge to neck). I hear if you have the Fender style tremolo/bridge spacing, you need the F style. Or should I stick with the rail type pickup?

Question 3: What would be the best switch/pot arrangement for a triple pup setup? I have plenty of diagrams to choose from for a double pup arrangement, but there are few for a triple pup arrangement. I have one for the Gibson Ace Frehley triple pickup arrangement, but it seems awful limited in optional settings.

Any help I can get would be appreciated! I am getting a custom pickguard made, so I can pretty much gut the body as needed for extra pots, switches or a third pickup. If there is any more information I can give you that would help, please ask!

I want to give this guitar a new sound, shield everything and update the components. I have had it for almost twenty years, and it has been a good solid guitar.

Thanks!!!

I would simply use the tone wizard to start off, because of the 21 day swap deal SD has. Just plug in what style music you play from whichever position. The first thing that comes to my mind, if you must have rails style pickups, would be a vintage rails neck, cool rails middle, and hot rails bridge.

 

[DrDoug]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Thanks for the help!

I have decided on the PG1 for the neck, but I am mixed about the bridge pup. I like the specs for the Custom-5, but I was wondering about the TB-4 since I have the tremolo? I have read some of the debates about this here in general, and they seem to go in the 'does not really matter' category, but what about this case?

I am a symmetry kind of person...lol. If I got the Custom-5 without asking about this, I would probably be kicking myself for not asking. My work is very exacting in nature, and if something did not line up I would not think it was right. But in this case, I do not have knowledge to make that judgment. Once I get this issue (for me anyway...lol) figured out, I will order the pups immediately afterward.

Thank you all for your patience and in answering my questions, this is a great community here and I have been enjoying what people have to say here. I wish I would have found it a long time ago!

 

[tone4days]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

for the kind of music you describe, i'd recommend a JB for the bridge to go with a PG neck ... the JB has 80s hard rock/ heavy metal written all over it

yes, get the JB as trem-spaced

for max versatility in a H-H guitar, i always suggest the P-type Mega Switch .. if you flip the magnet on one of the pups and wire it in reverse, you can get humcancelling in all 5 positions of a P type megaswtich .. and for clean sounds, the #2 and #4 positions are EXCELLENT with these two pickups

and welcome to our forum

good luck
t4d

 

[DrDoug]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Well, I settled on the PG1 for the neck, and the trem spaced TB-4 JB Reverse for the bridge, both zebra. They should be here later today (c'mon mailman!), and I am ready to start the wiring. I am going to try Artie's virtual third pup setup first and will post my results once I have beat things up a bit.

Thanks for all of the input here! It helped me to make sense out of what is out there and to make a decision. I was able to squeeze a free violin tailpiece out of MF for the wife (I lost hers resetting her neck, oops), so she is happy...lol!

I will post pics when I am done too! BTW, I offered Kokopelli my old Super Ferrite rails but have not heard back from him on it. If he is not interested in them, I will post them in the Trading area later. I figure $25.00 for the pair is a fair price (I saw a set that went on eBay for $39.00 plus $12.00 for shipping (ouch!), so I think $25.00 would be a fair price. If they don't sell, I will just shelve them (I am a natural packrat).

Again, thanks! :beerchug:

 

[DrDoug]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

Well, they came in yesterday as expected but one set did not come with the rectangular plastic frame for mounting it. It was obvious that the box had been opened before, but the pup in it had not been used. The JB had not been opened before and it has the frame in it.

I need this part as Peavey mounts the original pickups using three spring loaded adjusting screws, and there is no way to mount the new pup (cleanly) without it. I was able to mount the bridge pup but I have to wait for MF to send me the missing part for the neck.

Oh well, patience is one of my better attributes. I shall return!

 

[DrDoug]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

I am still itching to try out my new SD pickups, and because of Patrick Kirshtner at Seymour Duncan that will be possible soon! I have had no luck in getting anywhere with Musician's Friend on a pickup ring for the PG1. I told them that I needed the ring so I can mount the pickup (and cover the three old screwholes), and I would like one that matched the TB-4 (like a semi-gloss or flat black pickup ring). They said that they would take care of it. After over a week passes with no word, I called back and they said that the order was languishing in their warehouse, and they would get it going for me. The next day I got an email from them saying that since the pickup did not come with a ring they would not send me one, and if I needed any further help I should call them. So I did.

I said I would pay for one if necessary, and they said that they would send me one right away. Well, a week later I called again and I was told that they knew nothing about it. At this point I decided to email SD and ask them if they could help me get my guitar back together. I have looked around online (I live in a small coastal community and there are no music shops around that can help me) and all I could find are shiny black rings that come in pairs. Since my two pickups are different sized, I would need to buy two sets of rings. And I like the style that came with the TB-4 (not loud, nice and subdued looking in the semi-gloss/flat black). Patrick Kirshtner got right back to me and he apologized for the problem (I was not complaining about SD at all, and they do not owe me an apology but thank you very much!!) and he asked for my address so they could send me one! Now that is good customer service!!!

Thanks SD (and especially Patrick Kirshtner!), I can almost hear my guitar now!

I am looking for a Jackson RR style V now, and if it needs pickups I know what brand I will be using. This is my first new pickup purchase, and one thing that impresses me is good service. You can bet I will be buying my next SD pickups from somewhere other than MF, that is for damn sure.

I shall return!

 

[DrDoug]

Re: What pickups/wiring to use?

I want to say thanks everyone who had suggestions and information/tips for me.

THANKS!!!!

I have been playing it for a few weeks now, and I love the pickups. I had to dial my gear in for the new pups (and am still doing so!), but I love the new sound. The kids are even getting off their computers and coming in to listen/watch while I practice (pry a kid from a computer? Wow!), the sound is that different.

I absolutely love the TB-4/JB, it has the sound I wanted, spot on. The PG-1 is taking some getting used to, but I have been able to make some pretty good sounds with it. Both are a huge improvement over the original pups, and I am VERY happy with the results.

I went with the virtual third wiring Artie suggested (w/ push/pulls), and added in a couple SPDT switches so I can get any combination of pups I want. Each setting has its differences, and I love the variety it gives me. I tested it with a 250/250 (Vol/Tone) pot set, 250/500 and 500/500 and settled on the 500/500 w/ a .022 tone cap. Then I ordered the push/pulls for it. I intend to have a new pickguard to go with the paint job I am going to give it in the spring (picture bright metal flake dark blue w/ white & black EVH style painted stripes and covering it w/ a light glass flake in the clearcoat).

The pickups are everything I wanted, and more. And SD coming through with a pickup ring (for free!) to match made it come together nicely!

I play for my own amusement, so my gear is eclectic (and old), but it does the job for me. I have a SKB 8U rack with:

- Alesis RA-100 amp
- Samson CR-3X wireless
- DOD R-430 EQ
- Behringer MDX-2200 Compressor/Gate
- Behringer DSP2024P Effects
- Zoom RFX-2000 Effects
- Digitech DSP256 Effects

And I control/switch between the effects processors/settings with a Behringer FCB-1010 footboard, and I have an Ibanez Super Metal stomp box for making noise. This is run into two Nady PFW-12 monitors. Cheap gear, but it sounds good enough for my ears as I am the only one I have to please...lol

When I want to play quietly, I use headphones and a Zoom 9002 effects unit. Great for that late night jam while everyone is asleep. The pickups really wake the gear up, and that is what I was looking for.

Again, thanks for all the help! This place is a great asset for people like me!!