What's a real PAF?

[Luke Duke]

Re: Why get a real PAF?

Re: Why get a real PAF?

A real PAF gives better cleans. A real PAF yields more articulate distortion. A real PAF makes you play better. A real PAF gets you admiring glances from the opposite sex (or the same sex if that's your thing).

A real PAF lowers blood pressure, cures bad breath, stops nicotine craving, prevents drought, cures the common cold, slows global warming, ensures the sun will rise tomorrow and tastes great while remaining less filling.

It still sounds like a$$ in my banjo, though.

On a slightly more serious note, I'll agree with Lew. Even if you were to get a pickup that had identical response to this notional benchmark PAF, you're probably not going to nail the notional benchmark PAF sound unless you put it in a 50 year old singlecut mahogany guitar with a Brazilian Rosewood fretboard, long neck tenon, oil in paper caps, etc. As they say, "Everything affects everything".

Note that I said "notional benchmark PAF sound". Not only do I doubt that there's a pickup that's the closest, I question whether there is one true PAF sound to be nailed. It's kind of like nailing the "brown sound". Are you talking VH1, Fair Warning, or 1984? Even if we agreed on VH1 as the official benchmark, if you and I were to take the same gear and dial it in for "that sound" I'd bet that we'd sound noticeably different unless we A/B'ed our tone with the recording.

I guess my point (there's a point?) is that I'd rather chase a tone in my head rather than some benchmark. The tone in my head might be a moving target but it at least helps drown out the voices.

Of course, we've also established that the benchmark might not be a stationary target, either.

My other point is that there's probably more than one way to achieve that tone in your head. I definitely believe that it's possible to get the tone from VH1 without using a Frankenstrat with a tweaked PAF played into a Variac'ed Plexi.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

A hilarious, yet fantastcic post!

 

[JeffB]

Re: What's a real PAF?

Can someone give me a rundown on how the diff Alnico Mags affect tone?

I've got a 2005 Gibby LP Std, and it came with the BBPRo's which I believe are Alnico V magnets.

I like them alot but I'm not sure whether I LOVE them or not. They are very clear and don't muddy up at all, which is really nice. They also have alot of bite and low end (clear I may add). But the bridge pup has what I'd prolly say is very close to a Duncan CC sound..ALOT of mids..almost too much for me. I've been able to dial it out a bit by reducing mids on my amp, but I'm still not sure I like it. The Neck pup is great for higher gain work, but for cleans it's a bit...hmm...sterile, I guess.

I'm really at a loss where to go with Magnets and Duncans. Generally I've always used a SH5b/59 neck in gibbys, and had a pair of 59's in my Heritage 150. I really like the clarity of the BB Pros under high gain, something I never could quite get out of the 59's, either neck or bridge...they would get real muddy, real quick.

I want that BBPro clarity & tightness (specially for the neck), with a bit less mids.. and a tad warmer. Still gotta sound like a more traditional PAF. Otherwise I'd throw a SH5 in it and be done with it as I LOVE that pup in the bridge of a Les Paul.

Signed
Confused about PAF's in CT

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's a real PAF?

Can someone give me a rundown on how the diff Alnico Mags affect tone?

I want that BBPro clarity & tightness (specially for the neck), with a bit less mids.. and a tad warmer. Still gotta sound like a more traditional PAF. Otherwise I'd throw a SH5 in it and be done with it as I LOVE that pup in the bridge of a Les Paul.

Signed
Confused about PAF's in CT

I can give you my opinion.

A2 has softer looser bass and treble and broader more pronounced mids than alnico 5. Very compressible and touch sensitive.

A5 has more bass and tighter bass and more treble and less mids than alnico 2.

A4 has strong tight bass, strong mids, strong treble and seems a bit more articulate than alnico 2. It can also sound a little "edgey" when substituted for a2 or a5 in a pickup not wound for an alnico 4 magnet.

Ceramic seems to have plenty of bass, mids and highs and very full tone with a nice sizzle on top. It also seems to give a pickup a little more output or volume.

But magnets are only part of the story. Depending on how the coils are wound and if they are mismatched slightly, some alnico 2 pickups can be plenty bright.

The Pearly Gates is alnico 2 and has a nice edge to it...as does the Alnico 2 Pro. The Antiquitys are alnico 2 and are wound to have a certain hollow character to the mids that leaves a little more space or air in the tone than some other alnico 2 humbuckers. And the 57 Classics are alnico 2 and some people find them brighter and have even described them as being a little metallic.

Lew

 

[JeffB]

Re: What's a real PAF?

I can give you my opinion.

A2 has softer looser bass and treble and broader more pronounced mids than alnico 5. Very compressible and touch sensitive.

A5 has more bass and tighter bass and more treble and less mids than alnico 2.

A4 has strong tight bass, strong mids, strong treble and seems a bit more articulate than alnico 2. It can also sound a little "edgey" when substituted for a2 or a5 in a pickup not wound for an alnico 4 magnet.

Ceramic seems to have plenty of bass, mids and highs and very full tone with a nice sizzle on top. It also seems to give a pickup a little more output or volume.

But magnets are only part of the story. Depending on how the coils are wound and if they are mismatched slightly, some alnico 2 magnets can be plenty bright.

The Pearly Gates is alnico 2 and has a nice edge to it...as does the Alnico 2 Pro. The Antiquitys are alnico 2 and are wound to have a certain hollow character to the mids that leaves a little more space or air in the tone than some other alnico 2 humbuckers. And the 57 Classics are alnico 2 and some people find them brighter and have even described them as being a little metallic.

Lew

Wow...thanks Lew for all the great info.

I think the first thing I should do is wait for my main amp to get back from servicing and see how the BBpros sound through it (it's a MESA and hence a bit "darker", so it may sound better than through the Valvetronix and it's middy Marshall/Soldano models).

Then I guess, go from there.

You wouldn't happen to know what kind of alnico magnets Epiphone uses in the pups they put in the Les Paul Std. Plus models do you? Though they lack the clarity I like, they are more "PAF-ish" to my ears...the notes are a little fatter/rounder and the pups have less mids. They sound alot like the older pups Gibson used to use in the early nineties...490 type stuff.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's a real PAF?

Wow...thanks Lew for all the great info.

I think the first thing I should do is wait for my main amp to get back from servicing and see how the BBpros sound through it (it's a MESA and hence a bit "darker", so it may sound better than through the Valvetronix and it's middy Marshall/Soldano models).

Then I guess, go from there.

You wouldn't happen to know what kind of alnico magnets Epiphone uses in the pups they put in the Les Paul Std. Plus models do you? Though they lack the clarity I like, they are more "PAF-ish" to my ears...the notes are a little fatter/rounder and the pups have less mids. They sound alot like the older pups Gibson used to use in the early nineties...490 type stuff.

Seems to me that most of the budget pickups use ceramic or alnico 5 magnets. Rarely, if ever, alnico 2. Thanks! Lew

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: What's a real PAF?

I had a set of those Lindy Fralins. I didn't know they were A4. The neck pickup may be the best one I've ever heard. The bridge was too bright and hard, and didn't have that nice feel under the fingers that most Duncans have.

I also have all the Duncan Customs, including the Custom 4 nickelcovered.....MRID's borrowing it right now. It's exactly as Lew described, although I think I still like the Custom 5 better in a Paul.......not sure, though, they're really close.

 

[WICKED LESTER]

Re: What's a real PAF?

Just thinking, with so many variations of the legendary PAF, which one actually IS the closest? I've played a '59, currently use a Seth, know the deal with Antiquities, know about the the PAF & PAF Classic from Dimarzio as well as Gibby's 57s - which one is actually the closest? I know everyone talks about that 'sound' from that era, but there can't be that many variations (I mean in terms of how they're built) on that sound, can there?

there is no such thing as a PAF?
it is simply just a patent
as far the best sounding man that a real BIATCH :yell:
they were are ALL wound different

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: What's a real PAF?

I am using a fralin-a4 magnet (that I got from Lew :cool3: ) in my 8.65K antiquity in the bridge of one of my lesters. The amp-pickup-magnet-wood match is real good. That particular guitar sounded too scooped (and somewhat harsher than I am accustomed to) with the same HB but with an a5 magnet. With an a3 it did not have enough attack. With the dun-aged a2 and a full strength a2 it was a little too round for my tastes. I gotta add that among all these the dun-aged magnet is my second fav. It was clear, round and thick, still having a healthy doze of highs; but my personal tastes call for more attack in the bridge. The neck pickup is a 8.05K timbucker that sounds like a PGb in the neck but with more harmonics. (Of course I would not wanna wait a frigging year to get them! :smack: Am happy that I got them while they were not that popular in the LPF.) I use EB's 0.11-0.54 set, and it has Pigtail's ally tailpiece. (Lew you are a great man, that tailpiece is something I definitely will keep forever. Thanks man!)

On the other hand on another LP I am using an a5 antiquity bridge measuring 8.75K, and a 7.70K ant neck with the dun-aged a2 magnet (which came stock in that pickup). A5 is great for that guitar and hb with EB's 0.10-0.52 set.

So what I mean to say is that all depends on the particular amp, pedals, strings, guitar for a HB to sound great with a given alnico x magnets, x=2,3,4,5!

BTW I dug up an old thread about some boutique PAF clones:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=22709

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=5094

Hope it would help.

B

 

[Seraphial]

Re: What's a real PAF?

Well that's the thing I was wondering - everyone's trying to nail this elusive tone but nearly all of them are made differently. A2, A4, A5, potted, unpotted... I mean, if everyone describes them as trying to achieve that PAF/Seth Lover-made pickup, wouldn't they be all the same?

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: What's a real PAF?

Well that's the thing I was wondering - everyone's trying to nail this elusive tone but nearly all of them are made differently. A2, A4, A5, potted, unpotted... I mean, if everyone describes them as trying to achieve that PAF/Seth Lover-made pickup, wouldn't they be all the same?

But who said that gibson was consistent when they were winding those PAFs. The K values of original pafs are all over the place, lower 7K's to high 8K's. Likewise they were not consistent ('till 61) with the magnets they were getting. And it might very well be (and is rumoured) that the a5's back in those days are more similar to a4's of today.

B

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: What's a real PAF?

Powerfully
Alluring
Fiction

(ducks all the flying tomatoes)

 

[JeffB]

Re: What's a real PAF?

Lots of great info here. Thanks Lew and Dr. Barlo especially

The BBPros are starting to grow on me quite a bit. The bridge position is a bit middy, however I'm finding with some tweaks I can dial it out to where I'm very satisfied with the tone even on my crappy Vox's models

I really am enjoying the string definition/clarity, so I may just keep them in the guitar depending on how they sound through my MESA.

I think the 59's are a little fatter/warmer, which I prefer but they don't have quite the clarity these BBPros have either, so I may just to have to make a compromise for the clarity.

I will say these are by far the best stock Gibson pups I've ever encountered...except for the new Les Paul Deluxe I recently bought and returned. Those mini's sounded fabulous.. wish the QC wasn't so shoddy. I was in tone heaven with that guitar.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's a real PAF?

I had a set of those Lindy Fralins. I didn't know they were A4. The neck pickup may be the best one I've ever heard.

I had a 7.5K Fralin as the neck pickup in my Hamer Studio and I felt the same way about it. It was almost as clear as a single coil and I loved it. I had a 9.5K Fralin for the bridge pickup in that same guitar and loved the heck out of it too!

Then I got my Hamer Monoco Super Pro a few years ago, which came with a Duncan Custom Custom for the bridge pickup and I replaced the neck pickup with a Seth Lover. That (and my '60 ES-355 which was stolen 25 years ago) is the best sounding humbucker guitar I've ever owned.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: What's a real PAF?

That (and my '60 ES-355 which was stolen 25 years ago) is the best sounding humbucker guitar I've ever owned.

WOW! What a guitar! :saeek:

Sorry to hear it got stolen Lew. :smack:

 

[drew_half_empty]

Re: What's a real PAF?

Never played one of them...but I thought the Gibson 57s were thicker and creamier, especially when compared to say a DiMarzio PAF Classic which was a bit hotter. As someone who has an Epi 335 and wants to change his bridge pup cos it's often too muddy, Im interested in everyone's opinions!

muddy? are you serious? I can get those pickups to twang like a dang tele, are you sure it's not your amp settings or some old strings?

 

[Jimbojsr]

Re: What's a real PAF?

yeah, i am serious, and I'm not the only one who isn't a fan of Epi stock pups! Strings are nice new dadarrios, my guitar goes through a V-amp 2 into a new Fender princeton 650. I just want my baby to have a bit more life about it, and I'm sure a new pickup is all that stands in my way to perfection

Well, some talent may also be nice

 

[drew_half_empty]

Re: What's a real PAF?

hm, maybe try some '59s, those are about the brightest pickups i've ever used, and they still sound great for any kind of playing

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: What's a real PAF?

If you want REAL PAF's, spring for the new 50th Anniversaries. 8.52/7.49 and they sound more defined than the regular Seths.

 

[Tommygun72]

Re: What's a real PAF?

If all you want the closest to a PAF check www.crcoils.com and the crossroads set are awsome i reckon they are the closest to a 58-59