What's a tweed Super like?

[Rich_S]

I'm planning a Bogen PA-to-guitar amp conversion. I was thinking JTM45/Bassman, but this Bogen is old - it has octal preamp tubes. Someone suggested a tweed Super - it looks like the 5C4 was built with both 6SC7's and 12A*7's.

Does anyone have any experience with these amps? How do they compare to the better-known standards like the JTM45, the tweed Bassman, and the blackface Super & Concert. How available are 6SC7's compared to the more common 9-pin preamp tubes? Is there an octal dual triode with mu=100 (like a 12AX7) that could be substituted for the 6SC7 to make the amp more JTMish?

Or, should I stick to my plan and fab up a plate to shrink my octal preamp holes down for 9-pin sockets?

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

The late 50's version is very similar to a late 50's tweed Bassman which is the amp the JTM45 is based on. Similar tone but very differant tone too...more American and less British.

The transformers and speakers are the heart of an amp and those two componants are very differant in Fenders vs. Marshalls even though the circuit is very similar.

I've owned three tweed Supers: my '51 and a '54 and '55.

I like the old style big bottle octal preamp tubes and actually prefer thier rounder tone to that of a 12ax7. They're harder to tweak though because a 12ax7 is actually two complete tubes in one bottle and you can set up each half independantly from the other half...differant cap and resistor on each cathode for example.

The 6SC7 is two tubes in one bottle too but both halves share the same pin for the cathode...so you can't adjust one half for more gain and more bass and the other half for less gain or bass.

My brother Bruce (http://www.missionamps.com) is a genius though and he rewired all three of my old Supers for a much ballsier tone than they had stock. I don't know what he did exactly, but it was simple and very clever.

He posts alot on Ampage...you might want to join that forum and ask him some questions about it.

Lew

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

Something else: the Supers from '55 and before use only two volumes and a tone control...the Supers from '56 on use the more familar two volumes, treble, bass and prescence controls. I forget whether they have a midrange control or not. But it's a very differant preamp and sound than the early 50's tweed Supers. Lew

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

I'm getting ready to find out!

:banana: :dance: :bowdown: :dance: :banana: :dance: :bowdown: :dance: :banana:

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

I'm getting ready to find out!

:banana: :dance: :bowdown: :dance: :banana: :dance: :bowdown: :dance: :banana:

Bruce is making you a clone of my '51 right? That's the same amp as the Dual Professionals that Billy Gibbons uses and collects.

You'll love it Christian...but don't skimp on the speakers! I've got the best tone out of early 50's tweed Supers with combining one alnico 10 and one ceramic 10 and the two I prefer are the Weber P10RT and C10Q.

I'd like to try an Emminence Ragin Cajun in a tweed Super too...that was my favorite Emm 10 that I heard at NAMM and it reminded me of the '66 Jensen C10N or Weber C10Q.

Lew

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

Yes a 5B4 circut...I told him to do it right off the schematic with no mods so we'll see how it is when I get it. For speakers I am gonna go with a Weber 10A125 and a 10F125 I think. The only difference is gonna be that the cab on mine will be about 1 to 2 inches deeper than a "real" v front Super.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

Yes a 5B4 circut...I told him to do it right off the schematic with no mods so we'll see how it is when I get it. For speakers I am gonna go with a Weber 10A125 and a 10F125 I think. The only difference is gonna be that the cab on mine will be about 1 to 2 inches deeper than a "real" v front Super.

That'll give it a little deeper tone. Keeps the out of phase waves from the back of the speakers away from the waves of the front of the speaker a little longer. I think Billy Gibbons uses the stock version and with a Les Paul or humbuckers the tone is plenty ballsy stock. I found that I liked a little more gain when I play my Fender Strats or Teles through my '51 so I had Bruce tweak mine a bit. I DO like the tweaked version better with single coils...but it's muddier with humbuckers! :smack: Dang...you just can't have it all sometimes! On my blackface Deluxe Reverbs I have one channel set up to sound great with humbuckers and the other channel tweaked to sound ballsier with single coils. Sometimes you CAN have it all! :laugh2: Lew

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

Bruce said it could get muddy with buckers after the mods....Im gonna give it a shot stock first, if I decide I want it modded I'll just send it back to Bruce an get them done!

The guy making the cab convinced me to deepen the cab for better bass and to make sure I could use just about any speaker I wanted to w/o hitting the tubes...it seemed like a good idea plus those amps have a very shallow cab anyway.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

Yes. The cab design is probably one reason why my '54 seemed to have a slightly bigger tone than my '51. But I can fit a C10N with a big ceramic magnet into my '51 easily. Still, the extra depth should improve the tone. Good suggestion!

Curly...I see your reading this. Check your PM's!

Lew

 

[Rich_S]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

My brother Bruce... posts alot on Ampage...you might want to join that forum and ask him some questions about it.

Lew

Already a member, post posted.

But, back to my question - how does the tweed Super compare tonally to the common reference amps I mentioned, the JTM45, the tweed Bassman, and the blackface Super & Concert? I realize it's a tough thing to put into words, but I have very little experience playing Fender amps, I've been playing Marshalls for years.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

Im pretty happy with how everything is happening so far. I think Im gonna have to finally gonna have to suck it up and get some kind of attenuator to use with some of my amps...mostly the Super, I want to be able to really crank it up but even though it's less power than any other amp I currentl own Ihave a feeling its gonna be loud! I almost had Bruce put a Matchless master volume in it but changed my mind and just decided to leave the design alone.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's a tweed Super like?

Already a member, post posted.

But, back to my question - how does the tweed Super compare tonally to the common reference amps I mentioned, the JTM45, the tweed Bassman, and the blackface Super & Concert? I realize it's a tough thing to put into words, but I have very little experience playing Fender amps, I've been playing Marshalls for years.

I'd say less bite, less sizzle, less aggressive, less gain...less of that classic Marshall EL-34 honk and tone and more like a tweed Bassman but because they use two 10's instead of four, less bass than a tweed Bassman. Lew