What's going on with the Custom Shop?

[Gabrielinconfident]

Hey, everyone.

Recently, I've been going back and forth with the Custom Shop for a neck pickup and they have been denying to do EVERYTHING I ask for. I've posted a thread here last week if I'm not mistaken and it's related to this.

Here's the deal: both my guitars have HH configuration, but I grew tired of humbuckers in the neck, with SRV to blame. I've asked the CS to create a pickup to solve this issue. First, I suggested some weird stuff, like putting a stack under a humbucker cover or making a humbucker with a dummy coil. They denied it was possible, which I can somewhat comprehend. But then, I suggested they make a high output 3+3 humbucker, which they have on the website, and it was denied. I asked for a Quarter Pound version of the Stag Mag, which they had once told me they could do... denied. I asked for an Alnico V version of a Hot Stack... denied. Instead, they keep sending me suggestions of production line pickups that don't fit my needs for various reasons, even suggesting the same pickup twice, after I had already told them it wouldn't work and why.

So, what I'm asking you guys ISN'T for a pickup suggestion, this is just an illustration. I'm asking you: what the hell is happening with the Custom Shop?? Has anyone experienced a similar problem? Their whole slogan is "you dream it, we build it", but not even when I ask them to do stuff they have done in the past they complied. The previous paragraph is only a very short summary of what has been going on since late January. The only reason I keep insisting is because I don't know any other pickup Custom Shops.

If there ever was a more fitting scenario for the phrase "shut up and take my money"...

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

Would I be correct that part of your negotiation period with the SD Custom Shop overlapped with a major musical instrument manufacturers' trade show? This might explain some discontinuity in communications.

It cannot help either party that you keep altering your request.

One trend that I do observe is the increasing insistence on use of the Custom Shop ordering form template. Yes, the customer gets to select from a range of optional features BUT these are, by definition, restricted to a pretty narrow range. Really wild designs are either going to require detailed instructions or, as you suspect, are only open to endorsees and/or customers with exceedingly deep pockets.

Ultra-finely detailed pickup development tends to be the preserve of would-be signature pickup endorsees. Anyone else that fussed about what they require is probably on the brink of building their own pickups anyway.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

The negotiations happened mostly february forwards, so it wasn't so affected by NAMM.

I alter my request because when I say "do this", they say "no", instead of "well, that's not possible because of ____, but what if we do that?". If they don't even offer justification as why they can't do something, I don't have parameters to tweak my request. Therefore, I have to throw it in the bin and say something else. It's like that snobby girl at the party, that you keep trying to start a conversation with, and she keeps answering with monosyllables. The major difference is: I do have deep pockets and the CS does this for a living. Also, my last suggestions weren't that crazy. The very last one was simply a magnet swap on one of their existing models!

I'm starting to think they just grew too large too fast and customer service suffered.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

Not possible and will not do it are two different matters.

Some design ideas could be in conflict with another manufacturer's patent. (Here, I am thinking of the 3+3 'bucker.)

Clearly, it would be physically possible to place a stacked coils replacement pickup for Stratocaster within a rectangular humbucker cover but the finished article would be difficult to install in a guitar without (possibly) needing to modify the pickup cavity. The resultant sound might not be very good either. Two lots of screening and not possible to adjust as close to the strings as might be desirable.

A QP Stag Mag pickup would require abnormally skinny vulcanised fibreboard bobbins in order to fit into the footprint of a regular humbucker. The use of one quarter inch diameter rod magnet polepieces would force a change of coil geometry and, hence, alter the eventual sound. In my opinion, two QP coils linked in series, in the neck/Rhythm position is going to be a short cut to Mud City.

Unfortunately, the snobby girl analogue is apt in several respects.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

Thanks for the explanations, I hadn't considered those factors. But as I mentioned, those were earlier suggestions, and I kept getting simpler, until I got the basic magnet swap. Which they declined to do.

Regarding the QP Stag Mag: they told me a while ago that they had done it before, and could do it again. That's why I think it's strange that they would later say no. And yes, it would be Mud City, but my plan was to remove the pole pieces of one of the coils myself, turning it into a dummy coil for space filling and hum cancelling.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

Here is another thought. (Bear with me. Its relevance will eventually become apparent.)

A work colleague of mine and his wife run a business, making chilli sauces from fresh ingredients. They supply a number of local retail outlets and have their own website with mail ordering.

About eighteen months ago, the sauce makers ran short on supplies of one particular chilli variety. They attempted to make up the ingredients shortfall in his most well established recipe from chilli extract. The result was a good chilli sauce but noticeably different from the established product.

My advise to my colleague was to either give the extract-based sauce a different name or not to sell it at all. I took the view that the sauce makers stood to lose by deviating from the recipe for which they had worked long and hard to build a good reputation.

The same would be true for a pickup manufacturer. If your reputation stands on the consistency of your product, year on year, it would be unwise to apply established and/or trade marked product names to anything other than that original product.

 

[dominus]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

You're asking them to design a pickup by aesthetics rather than sound. Stop doing that.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

The same would be true for a pickup manufacturer. If your reputation stands on the consistency of your product, year on year, it would be unwise to apply established and/or trade marked product names to anything other than that original product.

That would be true, if we weren't talking about a custom shop. In this scenario, diMarzio would be McDonalds and SD would be Subway. One sells products as-they-are, the other offers both menu items and do-your-own-recipe ones.

You're asking them to design a pickup by aesthetics rather than sound. Stop doing that.

Where did you get that from?? The whole point here is to have a single coil TONE. I even asked for a 3+3 pickup, which is one of the ugliest possible pickup designs for a Jackson Kelly (the guitar in question).

 

[RockStarNick]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

The problem is this: time = money.

If Duncan has never made a humbucker with a dummy coil, like you are requesting, then they have no proof that it will A. work or B. sound good.

If they just crank out a dummy-coil-bucker, and ship it off to you, you may hate it. And then there's this pickup out in the world, that has the Duncan Custom Shop name attached to it, that sucks. And now everyone on the internet can read about how sh*tty this custom pickup is.

The other option: spend hours and hours of R&D designing a brand new pickup for a *single* customer. Custom Shop prices are based on estimations from previous jobs, materials, and time involved. If they charged you the hours for this new pickup, you'd probably be spending $1000+ on a single humbucker.

I know in your head, the dummy-coil-bucker might be simple, but the reality is, it's probably not a viable option, nor a sensible job for the Custom Shop to take on. And it's not discriminating against customers with interesting ideas. It's just time, money, and business logic.

And as much as it's not fun to get the "no" response back, or having the CS suggest other pickups, there probably "are" pickups out there that will achieve what you want, tonally, without reinventing the wheel.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

The Duncan Custom Shop isn't being run the same as it once was.

I know I'll take a lot of heat for saying that but it's true. I've felt with them many times in the past but in the past few years it's gotten harder and harder and I've gotten to the point where I don't even bother any more.

Truth is, there are a lot of good pickup makers out there and if Duncan doesn't want my money somebody does!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RockStarNick]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

I will agree with that statement. There's a TON of smaller pickup makers out there, who might have the time to tinker with new creative designs. Who knows, they might stumble across something cool!

For me, the Custom Shop has always worked well for variants on the traditional designs. I've ordered

• Overwound 9.5K Alnico 5 59 bucker
• Overwound 9K Alnico II 59 bucker
• Underwound neck 59
• Alnico 5 Twangbanger

Those designs don't require additional time or research, but do yield some great, unique variations on the classic duncan tones.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

I don't know anything about the SD custom shop . . .

The whole point here is to have a single coil TONE.

These sell for like 3$ at GuitarFetish. You can use any single coil you want in a humbucker route. If all you want is the single coil tone, you can have it for next to nothing.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

DiMarzio would be McDonalds and SD would be Subway.

Another unfortunate analogue. :smack:

The whole point here is to have a single coil TONE. I even asked for a 3+3 pickup

Two of the original pickups in my PRS EGII were Lindy Fralin 3+3 "domino" pickups. These utterly failed to sound like Stratocaster pickups.

one of the ugliest possible pickup designs for a Jackson Kelly.

Sidesteps the obvious jokes to ask;
1) what is the stock neck position pickup on that guitar?
2) why not simply rewire its coils in parallel?
3) remove the filister screw pole pieces. *


* This gives you that dummy coil without destroying a fibreboard plate type pickup.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

And then there's this pickup out in the world, that has the Duncan Custom Shop name attached to it, that sucks. And now everyone on the internet can read about how sh*tty this custom pickup is.

Guys, I get that. I got that a while ago. And that's why I made the request simpler and simpler as we went, to no effect. As I said: how many times have they done magnet swaps on existing models? That's how the Custom Custom and Custom 5 came about. But they just said no to the same process in a Hot Stack. There would be no R&D, the pickup wouldn't sound bad. That's the only reason I came here, because it came to a point where it just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

These sell for like 3$ at GuitarFetish. You can use any single coil you want in a humbucker route. If all you want is the single coil tone, you can have it for next to nothing.

I've bought something like that already. My tone problem is solved. I'm simply arguing that SD customer service is suffering from the company's overgrowth.

 

[RockStarNick]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

For example: A 1/4 Pound Stag-Mag. Sounds simple enough in theory, right? But... look at the physical dimensions. The standard Alnico rods are the same size as the standard bucker slugs. How are you going to fit 1/4" alnico rods in there? You can't just "shove 'em in" and hope for the best. You also can't just mill out standard bobbins, because then the inner walls would be way thin, or possibly even break through. In fact, you'd probably need to make completely custom humbucker bobbins.

So how do you do that? Well, you have to draw up a 3-D model on the computer, in some AutoCad type program, and have custom molds made. Molds are EXPENSIVE. You can't just make 5 or 6 of the bobbins. You need to make thousands to properly balance out the cost of the 3D model and molds. And then, you have thousands of humbucker bobbins for a custom pickup that only ONE customer wants.

The other option? Maybe fabricate a custom bobbin, BY HAND, out of some fiberboard material. Which would take hours.

 

[RockStarNick]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

Gabriel, I *do* agree with you on that though. That mag swap in the hot stack seems simple enough. But... I'm sure there's some sort of explanation for why it can't be done.

Maybe they're already tried it, and it sounds crappy?

 

[JeffB]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

Truth is, there are a lot of good pickup makers out there and if Duncan doesn't want my money somebody does

I agree. Unless you want the sound of a particular Duncan like say a JB or Custom or some other "signature sound" there are ton of equally good/arguably better small winders out there who will work with you and often are a less expensive option to get what you want. often, if it does not turn out how you like, they will re-wind for.free or offer a significant discount to get it how you want it.

This is not a slight on Duncan quality but simply issues of a more responsive, more accommodating/flexible small business vs. the demands and particulars of running a large business and making custom work profitable while also avoiding stepping on patent/trademark toes.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

Another unfortunate analogue. :smack:

You used chilli as a metaphor, haha

Two of the original pickups in my PRS EGII were Lindy Fralin 3+3 "domino" pickups. These utterly failed to sound like Stratocaster pickups.

It was just one of the many ideas. Not the one I've settled for.

1) what is the stock neck position pickup on that guitar?
2) why not simply rewire its coils in parallel?
3) remove the filister screw pole pieces. *

1) SH2. It's long gone by now. Currently, I'm using a Full Shred until the ring adaptor and the stack arrive.
2) Parallel coils sound more like position 4 in a strat than a single coil neck pickup.
3) That was a plan, before I settled for the ring adaptor.
4) I solved the tone problem. Thanks for the suggestions, but the ring is already on its way here, and I'm picking which stack to put in. Hence my attempt to get them to make an Alnico V Hot Stack. And before you ask why not other Alnico models, I like the compression and string separation of blade pickups and it's the only stack other than the YJM that has a 4 conductor setup. Since I use Liberator pots, it's the simplest way to just drop it in.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What's going on with the Custom Shop?

You used chilli as a metaphor, haha

Incorrect. I use chilli as a flavour enhancer. :angryfire

*

I put some of the "reluctance" down to human nature.

When you have been in the same line of work for decades, you know that some ideas will not turn out successfully but it might be so long since the idea was tested that its rejection becomes a reflex. The exact reason for rejection becomes lost because nobody at the issuing end needs an explanation any more.

Later, when somebody new chances upon the same idea for the first time, the response is reflex rejection without clear explanation PLUS nobody can be arsed to apply their minds to what the original explanation was.

If you have read through this post, you probably have more patience than the staff who field telephone enquiries in most businesses.