What's happening here?

[GOB]

I've got a LP with a Jazz in the neck and a 59/custom in the bridge

I just picked up an SG with stock Gibson 490r/t pickups in it

The Duncan's sound a bit smoother with better clarity and definition in both the bridge and neck positions. But, in the middle position with both pickups on, the Duncan's suddenly sound darker and lose much more of their responsive feel compared to the Gibson's.

I'm confused about what would cause the Duncan's to sound so different with both pickups on. Is there something about the way certain pickups work together? Like a cancelling out of frequencies thing? Or is it possibly something in the wiring of that guitar?

 

[jeremy]

Re: What's happening here?

thats exactly it, different pups blend differently and cancel different frequencies. if you adjust the heights of one or both of the pups you can change the middle position sound. obviously that will also change the sound of the pup you adjust the height of.

it is also possible that there is a difference in wiring but hard to know without taking a look

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What's happening here?

Could also be the pots. They might be different values in each guitar.

When two pickups are combined you also combine the pots.

So two 500K volume pots sound like a 250K pot and you lose some treble. Same for the tone pots.

Maybe one guitar has 300K pots, which can sound "OK" (not great, but OK). But when you combine them they sound like a 150K pot and all of your treble disappears.

Just a thought.

That might not be the reason at all.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: What's happening here?

Do we know whether one is wired 50's style, or otherwise wired differently?

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: What's happening here?

thats exactly it, different pups blend differently and cancel different frequencies. if you adjust the heights of one or both of the pups you can change the middle position sound. obviously that will also change the sound of the pup you adjust the height of.

True.

But another consideration is that the 490r and 490t are very closely matched in terms of impedance, while the difference between a JazzN and a 59/Custom is much higher. All else being equal, the 490s will balance pretty evenly in middle position (assuming the neck pickup is physically a bit lower to account for the larger string vibration there versus near the bridge.) But with the Jazz and the Hybrid there's a significant difference in DCR- in middle position there's going to be more juice flowing through the lower impedance neck pickup than through the higher impedance bridge, so the neck tends to take over your tone. Even though the Hybrid is a higher output pickup, it might not be enough to make up for the mismatch. And, as has been mentioned, lowering the neck pickup more will affect the tone.

I have several guitars where a lower output pickup dominates in middle position, on these I need to roll back the neck volume a bit for even balance.

On axes without separate volume controls I try to pair pickups whose DCR is relatively close. I've been told that 1.3:1 is about as high as the differential can be before this effect starts to become pretty noticeable. That said, there's a lot of variation from one instrument to another as well as between different pickup models, and it seems more apparent on some guitars than it is on others.

 

[Jacew]

Re: What's happening here?

But another consideration is that the 490r and 490t are very closely matched in terms of impedance, while the difference between a JazzN and a 59/Custom is much higher. All else being equal, the 490s will balance pretty evenly in middle position (assuming the neck pickup is physically a bit lower to account for the larger string vibration there versus near the bridge.) But with the Jazz and the Hybrid there's a significant difference in DCR- in middle position there's going to be more juice flowing through the lower impedance neck pickup than through the higher impedance bridge, so the neck tends to take over your tone. Even though the Hybrid is a higher output pickup, it might not be enough to make up for the mismatch. And, as has been mentioned, lowering the neck pickup more will affect the tone.

I have several guitars where a lower output pickup dominates in middle position, on these I need to roll back the neck volume a bit for even balance.

On axes without separate volume controls I try to pair pickups whose DCR is relatively close. I've been told that 1.3:1 is about as high as the differential can be before this effect starts to become pretty noticeable. That said, there's a lot of variation from one instrument to another as well as between different pickup models, and it seems more apparent on some guitars than it is on others.

^This. With SSL-1 and QP, I have to roll the SSL-1 volume to 7 - 8, or it overpowers the bridge QP. SSL-5 works beautifully together with it.

The Duncan's sound a bit smoother with better clarity and definition in both the bridge and neck positions. But, in the middle position with both pickups on, the Duncan's suddenly sound darker and lose much more of their responsive feel compared to the Gibson's.

50's wiring (where pickup input is on middle lug of volume) will save the high end on middle position. This sounds exactly like symptom of modern wiring (it could be something else too) compared to it, but it would have no effect when both volumes are full on.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What's happening here?

I've had that exact same experience with the Jazz. It was my first Duncan ever and is one of my all time favorites, but dialing in the guitar for the Jazz's awesome slickness doesn't put me in the mood for bridge position. Also middle position just ends up sounding bad. So I have a cheapo LP with a Jazz in the neck and that's it, plus either coil, parallel, or series wiring.

 

[GOB]

Re: What's happening here?

Very interesting info, thanks everyone!

I'm learning a ton about pickups that I'd never considered before!



For those curious:

The Les Paul has 500k cts pots all around with orange drop caps (can't remember what value). It has modern wiring

The SG has one of those PCBs in it. I think I read somewhere that it uses 300k volume and 500k tone pots

 

[Emopunk]

Re: What's happening here?

thats exactly it, different pups blend differently and cancel different frequencies. if you adjust the heights of one or both of the pups you can change the middle position sound. obviously that will also change the sound of the pup you adjust the height of.

it is also possible that there is a difference in wiring but hard to know without taking a look

With a standard Gibson wiring, he could also try to adjust individual PUs volume, to get a different blending of the two.

Inviato dal mio MotoG3 utilizzando Tapatalk

 

[AlexR]

Re: What's happening here?

True.

But another consideration is that the 490r and 490t are very closely matched in terms of impedance, while the difference between a JazzN and a 59/Custom is much higher. All else being equal, the 490s will balance pretty evenly in middle position (assuming the neck pickup is physically a bit lower to account for the larger string vibration there versus near the bridge.) But with the Jazz and the Hybrid there's a significant difference in DCR- in middle position there's going to be more juice flowing through the lower impedance neck pickup than through the higher impedance bridge, so the neck tends to take over your tone. Even though the Hybrid is a higher output pickup, it might not be enough to make up for the mismatch. And, as has been mentioned, lowering the neck pickup more will affect the tone.

I have several guitars where a lower output pickup dominates in middle position, on these I need to roll back the neck volume a bit for even balance.

On axes without separate volume controls I try to pair pickups whose DCR is relatively close. I've been told that 1.3:1 is about as high as the differential can be before this effect starts to become pretty noticeable. That said, there's a lot of variation from one instrument to another as well as between different pickup models, and it seems more apparent on some guitars than it is on others.

You are thinking of resistors here....pickups are signal generators. Middle posi all about combining the relative outputs of the pickups including where they are positioned.
I have many PAF clones and p90's with very similar ratios between K rating and balanced volumes when switching between pickups......The middle posi is different for ALL of them. Same with strat pickups and the 2/4 positions. I'd say I have 5 or 6 different varieties of vintage type winds and the response in them varies, even with n&m sets where the K reading is the same for both.

 

[Jacew]

Re: What's happening here?

You are thinking of resistors here....pickups are signal generators. Middle posi all about combining the relative outputs of the pickups including where they are positioned.

I was thinking the same thing when I tried to balance parallel positions in my strat. But it seems that lower DCR pickups do push more through. I don't know... It could be just that higher frequencies are less prone to cancel out.