What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

[misterwhizzy]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

But they do suck. I had been told by a couple of people they were being made in China with cheaper parts. It really shows in the tone from these newer ones. I'm not saying it's Chinas fault, but they are using inferior parts.

Fair enough. If they're using cheaper parts, I think it's fair to be critical of them. Typically, I do equate made in China to inferior products, but not because it's made in China. Usually, it's because the company outsourcing it to China is cutting costs any way it can, and that comes at the expense of the product. In other words, their quality degrades as a result of poor quality control. I lump inferior components into that category.

In other words, you're right, but I blame the company rather than the nation or the worker.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

^^ again, a big +1 from me

 

[glassman]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

As many of you know, I run a repair shop and have seen, first hand, the evolution of Chinese quality. The initial offerings were pretty sub-par. They have come a long way since then. The Chinese make what they make (in the instance of Marshall) precisely to Marshall’s specifications. This includes build quality, sequences and parts. Basically, Marshall is using the same part sources that they have since the JCM900 era in all of their amps; including the Chinese made ones. The only changes I have witnessed was a shift in electrolytic suppliers and very likely transformers as well (hard to tell). Assembly is completely dictated by the design, including wire routing; there is no skill level variable. These amps could be assembled by trained monkeys.

I worked, until recently, for a company that has made the exodus to China; building 4 facilities there over the last 6 years. I can attest that the lower cost of manufacturing in China isn’t due to efficiency, but rather due to the subsidies that the Chinese companies give to its domestic manufacturers. Joint ventures with foreign companies are treated like domestic interests. On average, there are four Chinese workers doing what would be one job in America. At most facilities, all workers live on site along with their families and all meals and lodging are paid in addition to wages. Officially, the world can trade with China. The reality of the situation is that to trade with China, you have to manufacture in China or your product will likely never reach its destination. China has its own “grass roots” form of protectionism and its government allows it to happen. Any company that locates to Chine does so because it sees China as an emerging market for its products and if it wishes to trade, it must manufacture there. Also, if it doesn’t, Chinese companies will simply copy the product and release it themselves…in its original form. The world’s patents are meaningless there. The reality of the situation sucks.

My guess is that if one were to replace the output transformer with a high quality replacement and the bias were set above the conservative factory set points; these Chinese amps would rival the original British units.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

...
I worked, until recently, for a company that has made the exodus to China; building 4 facilities there over the last 6 years. I can attest that the lower cost of manufacturing in China isn’t due to efficiency, but rather due to the subsidies that the Chinese companies give to its domestic manufacturers. Joint ventures with foreign companies are treated like domestic interests. On average, there are four Chinese workers doing what would be one job in America. At most facilities, all workers live on site along with their families and all meals and lodging are paid in addition to wages. Officially, the world can trade with China. The reality of the situation is that to trade with China, you have to manufacture in China or your product will likely never reach its destination. China has its own “grass roots” form of protectionism and its government allows it to happen. Any company that locates to Chine does so because it sees China as an emerging market for its products and if it wishes to trade, it must manufacture there. Also, if it doesn’t, Chinese companies will simply copy the product and release it themselves…in its original form. The world’s patents are meaningless there. The reality of the situation sucks.

...

^^ I didn´t want to get into it on this thread, but now that it´s been laid out there, this is one of the main reasoons I boycott chinese goods together with numerous other more regime-centric reasons. They export to every country in the world and are expect their products to be welconed with open arms, yet they refuse to allow companies that don´t manufacture there to distribute their products there, forcing the market to replace them with forgeries.

IMO China still has a VERY long way before they can be regarded as a truly legitimate global business partner. Their current Modus Operandi is doing nothing more than forcing companies to create jobs there regardless of the cost elsewhere. Most egotistical, self centered market on the planet IMO, and we´re stupid enough to let them do it regardless of how we get screwed by it.

Maybe in 20 years when there is no such thing as "western manufacturing "anymore and everybody is either unemployed, a politician, or living in China people will finally wake up and smell the chrysanthemums (pun very much intended)

 

[glassman]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

IMO China still has a VERY long way before they can be regarded as a truly legitimate global business partner. Their current Modus Operandi is doing nothing more than forcing companies to create jobs there regardless of the cost elsewhere. Most egotistical, self centered market on the planet IMO, and we´re stupid enough to let them do it regardless of how we get screwed by it.

I completely agree...problem is, China doesn't care if anyone regards them as a legitimate global business partner. They are setting a new set of rules into play where they are dominant and, due to our never-ending quest for more affordable goods, we are playing right into their hand; they are counting on our ongoing lust for inexpensive goods. It will stop some day...when we no long resemble a consumer base that merits supplying. And the American companies that JV'd in China will label us as a declining market and forget us too.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

I honestly think that Marshall did real good on their VintageModern.

Really love that amp.
And FJA does various killer mods to it too

That amp is developing a kind of cult following. There must be something to it. It isn't a super gain monster, which is good thing IMO. It is kind of a jumped channel amp with a MV and an extra gain stage. I think it must be really picky about speakers though. I also hear good things about the JVM. These two amps would indicate that Marshall hasn't totally lost it.

If Marshall wants to design a good clean/dirty channel switching amp, then they need just look back to their own Jubilee as a starting point. I have vintage amps and vintage amps clones, but my Jubilees are still my go to amps in many situations. It's just so practical in terms of a gigging amp. I never liked the JCM2000's nearly as good as the Jubilees, although the DSL may have been more versatile. I don't know if Marshall fully realized what they had in the Jub.

Oh... and they should not be made in China!

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

Where amplifiers are made is not nearly as important of what they are made from.

IMO, on Marshalls, the loudspeaker cabinet material is critcally important. For example, the recently-introduced Haze 40 combo has a composite cabinet. Through its own loudspeaker, it sounds so-so. Through an external cab built from Marine Birch Ply, it sounds like a Marshall. Through a Marshall 1912 Lead cabinet, even my Fender Hot Rod DeVille sounds Marshally. Go figure.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

^^ I just thought of something: could marshall´s more and more common use of composites be due to agricultural or environmental regulations restricting these types of wood from being imported in the first place?

I know that while I was at GE we had huge problems sometimes regarding the skids we packed shipments on, becasue some countries were illegal to ship standard euro-pallets to and we had to use specially impregnated ones... IIRC Boll weevils were the main concern... China was one of those destinations, as were Oz and Russia...

Just a thought, maybe it´s not Marshall (and others) wanting to use crap materials but environmental regulations at their new plant forcing them to do so...

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

^^ I just thought of something: could marshall´s more and more common use of composites be due to agricultural or environmental regulations restricting these types of wood from being imported in the first place?

To be honest, I cannot remember where the MBP was sourced? Could have been the UK. Could have been mainland Europe. Could have been the Soviet Union.

The obvious reason for shifting to composite cabinet materials is to reduce manufacturing costs. This is understandable on Marshall's more-affordable lines but not on the "pro" stuff.

 

[glassman]

Re: What's The Deal On The DSL Price?

^^^Plywood and composite wood products are exempt; even for international shipping.