Where does the 59/custom hybrid gets it's increased mids from ?

[beaubrummels]

Most players would stare at a frequency response graph and scratch their heads.

CaliGuitar uses a chart like this to compare the output (vertical axis) and resonant peak (horizontal axis) of their pickups relative to each other:

Frequency graphs would need to be exaggerated or truncated with higher resolution in a way that could make the subtle differences obvious.

It would be REALLY cool if SD had an interactive frequency modeler where you could choose pickups from drop-down menus to compare and it would graph their responses over each other, sort of like this:

Problem is a literal graph of the pickup characteristics is not what any guitar player hears. Once you run that through pedals, amp and speakers, there's harmonic energy above what the actual pickup puts out and it's perceived as if the pickup and guitar are fuller range and flatter than the 2k-4k spike you see if you just bench evaluate the pickup in isolation.

 

[freefrog]

Two coils wound with different wire gauges have different LRC specs. It contributes to a "comb filtering" effect absent with strictly symetrical coils.

To complete this first answer posted on a hurry: the differences of inductance, resistance and capacitance that I mention lead the two coils to react in different ways: one is louder than the other. One has also a narrower resonant peak than the other (a higher Q factor). Their relationship is affected by these nuances.

EDIT - These statements have nothing to do with the BMT chart published by Duncan, BTW. What I'm saying reflects what has been measured here with lab gear, bar none.


... and regarding (anecdotically) resonant peak measurements: they certainly convey useful info. Decades ago, Larry DiMarzio was already explaining that a resonance frequency reveals the voicing of a pickup... and the immense majority of Rz measurements in my archives can be consistently equated to the response of the same pickups once played.

Now, a resonant peak gives only a part of the pic for various reasons.

-Reason 1: the bass response is mostly due to the magnetic field with its strenght and shape. To sum it up in a simplistic way, a PU with "scooped mids" has most of the time a robust magnetic field promoting the bass and a narrow resonant peak favoring selectively some high harmonics. The "mid scoop" is an aural artefact due to this double bump of bass and harmonics - and a pickup with a narrow resonant peak (a high electrical Q factor) can exhibit a broad bandwidth once played for similar reasons, making the high Q factor frankly misleading if we simplistically rely on the Rz only.

-Reason 2: the tonal signature of a pickup is partly in its transients and ADSR envelope, that a Rz doesn't reveal. I think that Frank Falbo would agree with this statement.

Etc.

At least that's what my experience and understanding say. Non lilimtative list. A busy working day is waiting me. See ya all.

 

[Masta' C]

NO method of presenting sonic information visually is a) going to appeal to everyone, b) tell a complete story about how a pickup sounds, feels, and responds or c) cover the attributes of a pickup in different guitars and through different rigs in different settings.

The best we can hope for is a consistent and accurate method of presenting the information, where pickups are compared in a controlled setting and the difference between, say, a bass rating of "5" and a bass rating of "6" is well defined. Mincer is right in suggesting that the classic 3-bar BMT approach would be most appealing to the average player IF the information was consistent and pickups could be truly directly compared to one another.

Personally, I like the idea behind CaliGuitar's mapping system, which sort of bridges the gap between a simple BMT chart with output measurements and a frequency response graph (sort of "dumbs down" the whole process, as it were), but even that approach isn't perfect.

 

[freefrog]

Not less interesting is the simplified approach applied by Gretsch, IMHO:

https://www.gretschguitars.com/support/specs-explained/pickups

 

[chadd]

Most players would stare at a frequency response graph and scratch their heads.

Most players already scratch their heads about the stuff we talk about. I just figure using something that removes as many variables (and perceptions) as possible is the best to my way of thinking and since it's already used by another (more technical) part of the industry, it would work for the more technically inclined. Overlaying multiple also makes it an easy "apples to apples" comparison. No reason not to have a simplified reference, like the BMT chart, but everyone is going to perceive the sound differently and will always argue about it.

Rio Grande used to have a nice comparison chart on their website but I can't find it anymore. That was geared more towards vintage vs modern and low vs high output, but still showed clear differences that could guide players towards the right choices.

 

[Mincer]

Most players already scratch their heads about the stuff we talk about. I just figure using something that removes as many variables (and perceptions) as possible is the best to my way of thinking and since it's already used by another (more technical) part of the industry, it would work for the more technically inclined. Overlaying multiple also makes it an easy "apples to apples" comparison. No reason not to have a simplified reference, like the BMT chart, but everyone is going to perceive the sound differently and will always argue about it.

Rio Grande used to have a nice comparison chart on their website but I can't find it anymore. That was geared more towards vintage vs modern and low vs high output, but still showed clear differences that could guide players towards the right choices.

I think there was some thought going into the 3-number 'graph' when it comes to SD pickups. Comparing something like 636 to 747 is less useful than something like 377 to 844. You can get a good mental picture where comparing numbers like that.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Any system, if you understand it, can be useful. But no system is going to be accurate (for all the reasons listed in this thread). This question about the C/59 is a classic example...there is no way that pup has a mid response of "8"! To my ears, it is a very scooped sounding pup. I think it's a great pup, bright and articulate, and have used and made many of them and would certainly recommend that pup for many applications. But not if you want a pup with strong mids!

 

[Chistopher]

Any system, if you understand it, can be useful. But no system is going to be accurate (for all the reasons listed in this thread). This question about the C/59 is a classic example...there is no way that pup has a mid response of "8"! To my ears, it is a very scooped sounding pup. I think it's a great pup, bright and articulate, and have used and made many of them and would certainly recommend that pup for many applications. But not if you want a pup with strong mids!

I could see where someone could get an 8 from. It has a peak somewhere in the upper mids / low treble crossover area, and if you use heavy strings and a drop tuning I could see how that could present as midrange. Not usually what a customers going going wind up with though

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

A lot of imagination goes into these things. The only true EQ disposition any pickup has comes about from it's resonant peak, and there's at least a dozen "how pickups work" pages on the internet that will attest to that, but the problem is, the resonant peak moves around depending on the length of the guitar cable, and the amplitude of the resonant peak moves based on the pot values of the guitar, and the the input impedance of whatever the guitar is plugged into. You get more output by raising the pickup closer to the strings, more treble or bass by slightly tilting the pickup one way or the other. If we were blindfolded, we couldn't tell most of these pickups apart. That's why the bass mids trebles charts are confusing, they're trying to represent something that is complicated in a simple way, but that's not really possible, when you get down to it. It's a shame they don't publish the inductance of their pickups, as it's the only value they could provide that would genuinely tell you about how the pickup compares to others, sound-wise.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Why not some sort of chart like Shure uses in their Microphone User Guides? If the link works, scroll down to the "Typical Frequency Response" chart. Seems simple and should provide a consistent apples to apples comparison within the product line.

https://pubs.shure.com/guide/Super-...R9SF0C*MTYzMDk2NjAyNC4xLjEuMTYzMDk2NjEyOC40Nw..

The truth is microphones are a lot more complicated than pickups, because the diaphragm and the shape physically interact with the air in complicated ways, so the response curve is often a bumpy line, same issue with speakers, but a pickup is just a magnetic sensor, it's response is almost flat, up to the resonance. You wouldn't think that moving the resonant peak around would have such a big impact on the tone, but it just does. When you start filtering out higher harmonics past 2kHz, it sounds like the timbre is changing, because harmonics are a part of what defines the timbre. Our ears tell us the differences are rich and complex, but a technical level it is fairly one dimensional.

 

[Mincer]

Any system, if you understand it, can be useful. But no system is going to be accurate (for all the reasons listed in this thread). This question about the C/59 is a classic example...there is no way that pup has a mid response of "8"! To my ears, it is a very scooped sounding pup. I think it's a great pup, bright and articulate, and have used and made many of them and would certainly recommend that pup for many applications. But not if you want a pup with strong mids!

I agree with all of this. I think there was a mistake inputting the information on the website, honestly.

 

[Teleplayer]

The pickup has unbalanced coils. In this case the slug coil is the more powerful "custom" one, while the screw coil is weaker '59. It seems logical to me the pickup will sense less of the high frequency harmonics that are present closer to the bridge. The slug coil is probably better positioned to be sensing lower harmonics / " mids".

 

[Frogman]

I don't think that chart is accurate at all. I have a few Hybrids, and they are indeed, scooped.

Yeeeeeeahhhh, uhhh I had one and it was the most scooped pickup I’ve ever owned, still to this day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[freefrog]

[...] the tonal signature of a pickup is partly in its transients and ADSR envelope, that a Rz doesn't reveal. I think that Frank Falbo would agree with this statement.

Etc.

At least that's what my experience and understanding say.

Maybe I should have swapped these two paragraphs in order to "modalize" my statement: I wouldn't want to sound like someone who pretends to tell "the truth" while we are all mere human beings trying to decipher a complex reality....

Anyway: I understand where and why the idea above can appear as discussible. But a discussible theoretical model is still not "imagination". Mathematical harmonics of my perspective: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...sient_Response

Not enough free time for arguing about that BTW. I just wanted to comment my own words and to share some related link.

EDIT - And here is how Gibson tames the transients characterizing their P.A.F. clones: http://legacy.gibson.com/News-Lifest...ransients.aspx
Not sure to agree because the atonal attack / strong transients of P.A.F.'s is really a part of their tonal specificity to my ears... and therefore something that I'd tend to take in account to complete any BMT chart or EQing graph. But YMMV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMj_HnvJKXk

 

[freefrog]

The pickup has unbalanced coils. In this case the slug coil is the more powerful "custom" one, while the screw coil is weaker '59. It seems logical to me the pickup will sense less of the high frequency harmonics that are present closer to the bridge. The slug coil is probably better positioned to be sensing lower harmonics / " mids".

I have not been able to sum it up so clearly!

At least let's share some data to back up your statement...

Below is the electrically induced response of an Hybrid that I've built this morning with a SH1 for basis. I've limited the screenshot to most of the fundamental frequencies that we can play along a fretboard. The pickup was paired to the usual resistive / capacitive load created by pots + cable


Although both coils were in series, the custom one was 2dB louder during this capture done with a swept sine wave.



Here is also a zoom on the resonant peak of the mentioned hybrid, translating how it filters harmonics from each coil. I've trimmed the pic for questions of intellectual property but people will get the picture. Green line = Custom coil, orange line = SH1 coil.



Here is a similar zoom on the initial resonant peak of the SH1 used as a donor. Note that it had a Mogami 4wires cable altering slightly the response compared to a factory SH1 with 4wires cable but once again, people will get the picture.




To be continued if possible... I've other data to share and comments to do but not enough free time for that right now.

 

[Teleplayer]

Thanks to Freefrog for providing the simulation. Although I don't know the details of the experiment, I wonder if it captures the physics of the string vibration. After I made my post, I attempted a simulation using a webpage by Mr J.D. Tillman. This only models the sensing the string vibration at a specified distance from the bridge. For this example I chose, 1.3" for the screw pole, and 2.0" for the slug pole. The note simulated is the G string at the 12th Fret, "G" which is 392Hz.

There are subtle differences between the simulation with balanced coils, and the one with Un-balanced coils. The unbalance is -2dB for the screw coil as mentioned by Freefrog. In the diagram I have labeled the harmonics from 2 to 8. Label 1 is the fundamental at 392Hz.

[currently I am having trouble to upload the images, so I will try again tomorrow and see if it works]

 

[Mincer]

Images are a little sketchy at the moment. Try hosting them on an image hosting site for now.

 

[freefrog]

Thanks to Freefrog for providing the simulation. Although I don't know the details of the experiment, I wonder if it properly captures the physics of the string vibration.

Hello,

Thx for sharing! And to answer to your question: it's not supposed to.

My screenshots above translate only how a disparity between coils affect their output level and their global way to shape harmonics as resonant filters ("electrically", if you prefer).

Taking in account strings vibration would require to do what you've done with the Tillman model - BTW, if it's not possible for you to upload pics, I think that people will see what you mean by entering the values that you mention in the online simulator: http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/

More later, if time permits.