Which should I buy!

[ehdwuld]

Re: Which should I buy!

Yeah manufacturers get different prices than retail consumers or MAP

Again because of bulk

Keisel has been doing it for years
The guy running the CNC isn't a luthier
The guy spraying the finish, while trained and very good at what he does
Isn't a luthier
While they do live in San Diego, and it is expensive there
.......hmm they may make more than $30 hr....
That is a very high rent area

 

[orpheo]

Re: Which should I buy!

Orpheo! Your breakdown made me curious.... I think it is generally true that producing quantity makes the per unit production cost lower.

that is absolutely true. Even if the costs for material stays the same, simply making more of the same, lowers cost. You're faster, less tool changes, etc.

I'm thinking buying boatloads of hardware as oem etc., which in turn drops the price of a single bridge or tuner considerably. At least this is what I think.

That is also very true. Buying those parts as singles or by the dozen saves a lot. In shipping costs, handling costs (time) and the materials themselves get cheaper too.

Also, companies like Fender/Jackson or Ibanez or you name it are making their 1000-1500 USD Guitars át a subcontractor's plant where they don't have to pay the hourly wage of a fine craftsman like you

only in the far east! In the USA, the story is a bit different.

but rather that of a sinple employee trained to perform fraction of the building process.

but this is true for almost every manufacturer where there's more than one employee!

Don't you think that all these cost cutting measures I listed should be enough to pay for the extra effort and attention to detail which would enable them to mass produce great or near perfect instruments for 1000-1500 usd?

Yes it should but it doesn't. It doesn't because the bigger manufacturers don't make guitars out of the love for the instrument, out of love for music, but because they can achieve a certain bottom line, in the black. Maybe the started out that way, maybe music is still important to them, but getting a profit so they can reinvest that money is just as important if not more so. How else can we expect the larger companies to innovate? Not just in bettter or cheaper guitars, but in planting new trees, finding ways to finish/spray a guitar that impacts the environment less and less, etc etc. That's why they need to cut the cost and the smaller luthiers have that incentive to a lesser degree.

My gut feeling is that it should be plenty enough, but due to business strategy it'll never happen, cause noone would buy a 3-5k USA guitar if they can get the same quality sans the made in USA sticker for the fraction of that price. You get most of the fancy stuff for 1-1,5k, but it sounds unrealistic to me that, say, and indonesian pro series Jackson is "worse" by or lacks an amount of labor worth 4000 usd than its usa made counterpart.

But isn't that exactly the core of the issue? You cannot expect the same level of attention to detail, the same quality of materials, in a 1000 dollar guitar versus a 4000 dollar guitar.

*quality of the nut (slots, shape, contour)
*choice of timber
*quality of fit and finish
* materials

just to name a few. They all matter and they all add up costs like crazy.

For example. a maple top for a les paul, no figure: 60 dollars. medium figure: 95 dollars. normal figure: 125. slightly better: 175. premium? 250. 5A flame? 350 dollars. And that's without the guarantee that it comes without worm holes. So, that's why when you buy such a top from a small luthier, the price for super-premium 5A flame hits 500$ upcharge, easily, because the shop has to calculate the price such that if it has to buy the top twice for some reason, they can.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Which should I buy!

Yeah manufacturers get different prices than retail consumers or MAP

Again because of bulk

Keisel has been doing it for years
The guy running the CNC isn't a luthier
The guy spraying the finish, while trained and very good at what he does
Isn't a luthier
While they do live in San Diego, and it is expensive there
.......hmm they may make more than $30 hr....
That is a very high rent area

if someone personally makes over 30 USD an hour, that's a lot and insane. From my EU perspective anyway. that would be 4800$ a month before taxes. I wish... I really wish I made that kind of cash.

 

[nexion218]

Re: Which should I buy!

I'd be an awful merchant, that's for sure... Ijust couldn't put a price tag of 5000+ dollars on a guitar with solid color finish and not much extra on a production line model with a straight face... I get the it how the costs skyrocket with a small boutique builder, but I still find the upcharge of big companies disgusting. For example: the last guitar I bought cost me around 1300 dollars, Jackson WR7 Pro Series, made in Indonesia. The USA version of the model is slightly different (different wood combination , beveled edges and Hipshot open gear machines), but same pickups, natural satin finish/stain and the MSRP is 5300 USD...I just can't digest that price difference. Make it 3 grands and I'll give it a pass and I guess it still earns them a handsome profit on a single unit. Paying around the double for better QC and thre prestige of the "real deal" is kinda OK, but 4-times the price? Nah...

 

[orpheo]

Re: Which should I buy!

I'd be an awful merchant, that's for sure... Ijust couldn't put a price tag of 5000+ dollars on a guitar with solid color finish and not much extra on a production line model with a straight face... I get the it how the costs skyrocket with a small boutique builder, but I still find the upcharge of big companies disgusting. For example: the last guitar I bought cost me around 1300 dollars, Jackson WR7 Pro Series, made in Indonesia. The USA version of the model is slightly different (different wood combination , beveled edges and Hipshot open gear machines), but same pickups, natural satin finish/stain and the MSRP is 5300 USD...I just can't digest that price difference. Make it 3 grands and I'll give it a pass and I guess it still earns them a handsome profit on a single unit. Paying around the double for better QC and thre prestige of the "real deal" is kinda OK, but 4-times the price? Nah...

agreed, that kind of an upcharge is hard to swallow.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Which should I buy!

I never said that you cannot get a great guitar for 1500 dollars. But, I do find that it's harder to find one. Corners are almost always cut somewhere and the average guitarist might not see it. No problems with that, because as a luthier I look at other things than the average guitarist.

For example:

I want the fret ends to be as uniform as possible as well as being the most comfortable as possible. Manufacturers like Ibanez tackle that issue by rounding over the fret ends almost to the extreme. Why? Because it is easier. At Aristides, we don't do that; we take off just enough to make it supercomfortable as well as uniform. That takes time and practice.

I don't want to see zinc or zamac on guitars. Apparently, that's difficult because most hardware is just that. It sounds mediocre compared to aluminum, brass or steel but it's cheap. Even a Gibson customshop has that ****ty material. Swap it for a better made bridge and your guitar will improve significantly.

I am very peculiar about how I want to see the nut seated, cut, beveled and polished. Take a look:

This is a very, very expensive PRS but that nut pains my eyes. The 'walls' of nut next to the strings is way, way too high. But, it's easy to cut it this way.

One of ours:

See the difference? And believe me: those strings never pop out of the nut, because this nut was cut properly.

I learned to look at how the bookmatch was made, how the joints line up. That's also a very particular thing most people don't care about, but as a builder, I do. I've seen Kiesel's at NAMM where the joint of the top was mismatched by 3.5 millimeters to the joint of the back. People didn't see it, or didn't care. I do. Why? Because it shows a lack of care, of detail, when that guitar was made. It's a few minutes of extra work but if that's too much, what other corners were cut?

I also learned to look, actually look at the body radii and how the body was contoured and sanded (and in later stages, porefilled, finished, sanded and buffed).

The difference between a 1500 and 3000 dollar guitar? Uniformity, consistency and eye for detail.

This response makes much more sense elaborated than your original. Thanks

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Which should I buy!

And that's the problem. What I believe is a high end guitar is not how you perceive a guitar, as I explaned earlier. You simply cannot make a truly high-end guitar for 1500 euro's, including tax. That is simply not viable, at all. And the reason why for example Kiesel can, is because... they don't. I don't perceive their 1000-1500 guitars to be top tier guitars. I'll explain the cost breakdown in a different post.



I tackled this question in the post above


idem. Vandermeij is in Amsterdam, Aristides is closeby (Haarlem), Max Guitar Store, Panucci, Heeres and myself are in The Hague (the Rock capital of our country: no joke!), Adamovic is in Haarlem, same for Oigun. You just have to know where to look.

Hey man, thanks for all the info -I was mostly looking for Used or unique European guitars -I'm back in Amsterdam next spring.