Which way with the Treble Bleed?

[Rich_S]

I put treble bleed circuits in my two humbucker guitars a few months ago. I used the oft-recommended values .001 uF and 150K in parallel. They certainly maintain the treble as I turn down the volume pots, but I think they're too much. Without the treble bleeds, my usable volume range was maybe 7-10, now the volume doesn't drop off much until I get the pot below 4, and to really clean it up I need to turn down below 2. I guess I'm looking for something in between the .001 uF/150K setup and no treble bleed at all.

Back in the '80s I had an original US-made Schecter Saturn (PT) that had a parallel R/C treble bleed circuit that was great, but I have no idea what values they used.

So, if no treble bleed is a bit muddy and the volume drops off too fast, but the .001 uF/150K values keep too much treble with volume dropping off too slowly, what values should I try next?

For reference, the guitars are:

• Schecter PT with a Duncan '59 set and two 500K volume pots (no tone control)
• Hamer Sunburst with Josh Gravelin pickups (7.7k neck and 10.8k bridge); two volume, one tone, all 500K.

 

[VinceT]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

I tried treble bleeds on a number of HB guitars. Ultimately, I ended up taking them all to (Gibson) 50s wiring, which suits my ears better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

First step would be to try a smaller cap. Try a 680pF and see if that is headed in the right direction.

If its still too much, maybe investigate smaller caps such as 220pF or 270pF with 150k resistor in series ( instead of parallel).

 

[Hank-]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

Looks like the parallel treble bleed setup isn't for you, here it is making the volume taper behave in a linear form.

The one in between that & just a cap as a treble bleed is the kinman mod(R+C in series). It will also affect the taper but not so significantly as it it now. Use the same values 150k+1nF, for starters. Mini alligator clips will work great for changing R or C values for tests.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

The fellas are right. Parallel is a no go. Either use series if you want bass presence as you turn down, or use a cap only if you want it to be equally as bright (sometimes more) as you turn down. They will draw out the taper but not totally wreck it like parallel does. The larger value cap you use, the more the taper gets drawn out. The values you have right now are in the ballpark for series. For cap only, the ballpark for me is 150 - 330pf.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

Try just a small 180 pf. cap across the volume control. No resistor.

That's the value PRS uses and three of my four PRS guitars have it.

It's so small that I can barely hear the difference in my one PRS that does not have it.

But it does help and it does make just the right amount of improvement.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

Try just a small 180 pf. cap across the volume control. No resistor.

That's the value PRS uses and three of my four PRS guitars have it.

It's so small that I can barely hear the difference in my one PRS that does not have it.

But it does help and it does make just the right amount of improvement.

Also, your Hamer probably has the tone control connected to the output jack...since every Hamer I've owned did.

That is the essence of the 50's mod (connecting the tone control to the output of the guitar, after the volume pot) which brightens the guitar when the volume knob is turned down.

So you're double brightening that guitar if you also installed a treble bleed cap on its volume control.

 

[Rich_S]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

Ding, ding, ding! Lew wins. When I wired this guitar up, I remember thinking that I didn't have a choice about normal/'50s wiring since I only have one tone control. If I'd thought it through a bit more, I might have realized that '50s is the only way to wire it. Doubly dumb, I didn't try it without the treble bleeds before I installed them; I was anxious to just get in and get the whole job done in one shot.

I pulled the treble bleeds out and tried it through my headphone practice rig and it sounds good so far. I'll take some time to try it through my main rig over the next week or so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

Ding, ding, ding! Lew wins. When I wired this guitar up, I remember thinking that I didn't have a choice about normal/'50s wiring since I only have one tone control. If I'd thought it through a bit more, I might have realized that '50s is the only way to wire it. Doubly dumb, I didn't try it without the treble bleeds before I installed them; I was anxious to just get in and get the whole job done in one shot.

I pulled the treble bleeds out and tried it through my headphone practice rig and it sounds good so far. I'll take some time to try it through my main rig over the next week or so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks! You do have a choice though. You could wire your guitar so that the tone control is connected to the input of the volume control...same terminal the output of the switch goes to. That would be "modern" tone control wiring.

I think of that as being terminal #1 or the input of the volume control, with the middle terminal being #2 and the output of the pot, since it leads to the output jack.

Then you could try a treble bleed cap if you wanted to.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

What's the negative of the 50's style wiring? Tone control get wonky when the volume is down or something?

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

What's the negative of the 50's style wiring? Tone control get wonky when the volume is down or something?

People say it changes the taper of the volume and tone pots.

What I hear (and it's as much a feeling as a hearing) is that a bright pickup or bright guitar can start to sound a little thin in the mids and sort of steely with the 50's tone mod.

A loss of thickness and a loss of warmth. Which is the point, I guess.

I didn't like the 50's mod when I did it to my Strat and my Tele.

It's better suited to humbuckers or maybe P90's, than it is Fender style single coils, IMO.

I no longer use it, myself.

PRS uses a 180 pf. cap across the volume control and that's enough for me. It's barely audible. Just enough to make an improvement.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

Downside of 50's wiring is that it makes the controls more interactive. I still prefer it.

What ever happened to the "Falbo" treble bleed. I tried it once with no plans of keeping it because 50's wiring works well enough for me. But I never see it mentioned. It seemed to work pretty well for the brief time I tried it.

http://www.dominocs.com/AshBassGuitar/index.html?modtreble.html

 

[Hank-]

Re: Which way with the Treble Bleed?

Downside of 50's wiring is that it makes the controls more interactive. I still prefer it.

What ever happened to the "Falbo" treble bleed. I tried it once with no plans of keeping it because 50's wiring works well enough for me. But I never see it mentioned. It seemed to work pretty well for the brief time I tried it.

http://www.dominocs.com/AshBassGuitar/index.html?modtreble.html

Its good, I also had it briefly & found it to be sorta corrected modern wiring. The volume would not get muddy at lower levels & the tone pot worked like it should, like dialing out the brightness/sheen of the treble bleed if necessary as well, i did use a resistor in series with the cap for this mod as well since just the cap was not to my liking. I went back to plain old modern wiring but with a no load tone pot. I found I didn't like fiddling with the tone control much so this worked better for me. And started using linear taper volume pot in certain guitars that benefited from it. I never liked 50s wiring scheme, its effect on overall tone doesn't work for me.