Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

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Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

Letus said:
I don't know how I'm going to pull off my pieces live.
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Lol. Take off the toggle switch cap?
Nah it can be worked around. Randy Rhoads did it. Still not ideal though, for those of use who like the occasional tap harmonic.
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

9unslin9er said:
Both Heritage of Kalamazoo and PRS use angled headstocks.

Not nearly as bad as Gibson. But it's still a dumb design. People are familiar with that design though, and they'll keep making it.
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'Familiar with it' and prefer it. I don't want a guitar with the headstock, neck, and body all on the same plane. Not everyone is enamored with Leo's design work.
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

9unslin9er said:
When you ...blah blah woof woof
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You assume that your the only person here who has a account on MLP. Ive read all the tripe that your buddy John Vasco has spread. Doesnt change anything, doesnt change that you dodged my question. Doesnt change that you have no proof that anything got destroyed. Maybe it did maybe it didnt, funny you bring up Socratic method to try and make your point then you create a strawman instead of actually posing something to encourage critcal thinking. A car getting towed is a strawman you have no idea how the govt stored or transported the lumber. I'm sure some of it probably did get damaged but I still think your assertion that "most" is well.. silly and based in nothing but your personal bias against a company.

Your logic is... well.. interesting. Your sure that furniture companies have gotten sued... yet you have never heard of any.. .curious.... But you say that the govt needed to make an example of gibson? Why? Show me where the bad Les Paul touched you on the doll. Sounds more like you got a bone to pick with Gibson rather than any sound reasoning.

You admitted that its the players that need to change their thinking not the companies. Players want rosewood so thats what they get. Oh and btw gibson never really hid the fact that they used 2 ply rosewood boards during that time. Sure they didnt advertise it as a feature but if you read the specs on the website at the time the models were listed as having laminate rosewood boards or full thickness boards depending.

So back to the critical thinking and my original question. If Gibson was so guilty why did the govt give any of the wood back?
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

9unslin9er said:
We can't have a discussion if you choose to be disrespectful towards me.
This stuff is all over the internet. I shouldn't have to search for it for you.

Straw man...right.

http://www.illegal-logging.info/content/ice-fws-raid-lumber-liquidators-over-possible-wood-import-lacey-act-violations

http://www.risiinfo.com/techchannels/environment/Are-some-US-paper-suppliers-violating-the-Lacey-Act.html

Not just wood violations either:
http://huntinglife.com/tennessee-attorney-pleads-guilty-to-lacey-act-violations/

You might ask...well did Allen Belvins get his dead deer back?
I would assume if there was an agreement drawn out, the Government would probably sell the dead deer back to him. What the hell are they going to do with a dead deer?
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Saying your logic is interesting is not disrespectful and is quite a long ways away from what I would have said to you if you were in a pub telling me this. Your straw man was that the govt storing a towed car is the same as the govt storing Gibsons wood.

2 reasons this is a straw man. 1 is the car is kept by your local city govt while the wood was in the hands of the federal govt bad idea to assume that both treat goods in their care the same also one is being impounded for a violation it is not being siezed as possible contraband. 2 You dont seem to be familiar with what are called "rules of evidence" and "chain of custody" The government cannot destroy stuff at will that it might want to use as evidence in a possible court case. IF the government had destroyed it then decided to go to court with it they would have lost their physical evidence (not a good plan in any court) The police cannot sell a siezed car before the court decisions. Now if the govt decides we will destroy some of this then give it back to them without taking it to court Gibson has a slam dunk civil case that it can bring against the govt. If the government was wanting to make an example of Gibson giving them a grounds for a civil case that they will lose is not a good plan.

BUT then you change your argument then you say well the government sold Gibson their own wood back. This is much different than what you were saying before and is in effect what happened. But NONE of us are privy as to the why's of this happening we can at best speculate. But it does loop us around again.

IF Gibson did something wrong why would they give it back? You're getting very close to arguing that the Govt extorted 300k out of Gibson for the wood. If the govt was truly interested in upholding the law and had a great legal case against Gibson they stand to lose nothing by going to trial. You think that storing less than a shipping container of wood is going to break the Govt?

I find it very curious that you call Gibson a scape goat... The very definition of scapegoat is someone who is singled out for unmerited negative treatment or blame. Since when has that been acceptable in the US? Ok I havent lived in the US for 5 years but I dont think its changed so much that the govt is free to get away with this without scrutiny.

AFTER I brought up furniture you decided to google other lacey act violations. And you came up with 1 actually relevant article. The deer and the pondering about paper arent relevant to this discussion. The deer because thats wild life and not wood the paper because no ones been charged with anything it was just someone wondering if its going on.

So we have 1 instance... 1 of a flooring importer being raided (and no charges being filed) This is a far cry from your statement that you were sure that the govt was cracking down on "MANY" companies.

Sorry but many of your assertions lack the necessary legal insight, You've made judgements based upon incomplete assessments at best.

You wont convince anyone that its only Gibson behind the lack of innovation. Any time they do anything to try and innovate they get blasted for it. Its also not Gibsons job to change the consumers mind. If players asked for guitars made of recycled tampon tubes the manufacturers would come storming but players arent players want rosewood and ebony. Gibson themselves are trying to promote other avenues by making guitars with baked maple and richlite and its the players resisting not the company.
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

The government took the wood from Gibson......they arent going to sell it back to them afterwords. Thats like a police officer taking drugs from a drug dealer, busting him, and then selling the drugs back to him
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

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Back to the original topic...

hydro said:
it really pains me, because I think the Les Paul is the most beautiful, iconic solidbody electric guitar ever made. But every time I have played one I have been left cold. The single cutaway bothers me, the weight bothers me, the neck (especially up near the body) bothers me, and the tone is so dark, almost remote sounding to me... They just always felt like I was playing a log.

Maybe i never played a really good one, or maybe i just don't get it.

I mostly play SGs and hollowbodies. I have always wanted a Les Paul but to be brutally honest, only because of their looks.

My main guitar idols (except Iommi and Jimi) all played LPs at some point or another. Am I just a mutant? Am I missing a chromosome? WtF?
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I would say we're all tempted to think a guitar is a guitar. Anything I do on one I should be able to do on the other. But looking back at my experience, Gibsons, Fenders, all the various models... they're like cars and trucks. Some are interchangeable. Some cars are pretty comfortable and you can jump in a friends car and start driving and still feel at home. But then there's 18-wheel tractor/trailers and motorcycles that don't serve all the same purposes and require different skills.

I think jumping from a super Strat to a Les Paul is like that. A Les Paul perfect for certain things, just not the same things a super Strat is for. And you have to learn how to drive it and get used to it, and judge it by it's own merits at doing what it does well.
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

9unslin9er said:
I tell you what. Because, we can type all fraking day and go no where.

There are hundreds if not thousands of guitar companies out there. They all get their wood from somewhere.

Gibson got nailed.

Not PRS, not Ibanez, not Schecter. They all use rosewood.

You have to be importing an ASTRONOMICAL amount of stuff, for this kind of s#it to get noticed by the Feds. Enough that they have a case to build against you.

Gibson PLED GUILTY and they paid out. End of story.

That's my argument. What's yours? That others haven't been caught? Yeah. OK. Save it for the judge.
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They did not plead guilty they settled which included a statement of wrong doing but not a guilty plea.
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

Letus said:
How did Randy Rhoads do it?
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By being the effing MAN.

 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

9unslin9er said:
You see...this statement...just...facepalm. And I choose not to entertain this idiotic discussion any further.

YOU CAN'T SETTLE IN A CRIMINAL CASE!

"Settling" is for Civil Court.

In Criminal Court you are charged with a crime, a misdemeanor or a felony. In which case you choose to defend, or admit guilt and accept a sentence, in this case a fine.

Gibson did not fight it. They pled guilty. You need to get your head out of Italy or the American justice system is going to be a rude awakening, especially when you tote around that M4gery.
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Your not very familiar with the case at all are you? You do know that Gibson was never formally charged with a crime? You do understand that process right first your accused then you are indicted. Yes the govt never charged Gibson formally. Might curious isnt it? But hey dont take my word for it. Read the documents for yourself

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Gibson-Comments-on-Department-of-Justice-Settlemen.aspx

As I am actually a American citizen and lived there for most of my life I am very well versed in the ins and outs of the legal system like for example the 2nd amendment giving me the right to bear arms. I dont know about your state but where I am from open carry is perfectly legal. Even more so when its done on private property.
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

9unslin9er said:
Your gun comment amuses me. Just stop.

Yes, I read the whole thing.

“As a result of this investigation and criminal enforcement agreement, Gibson has acknowledged that it failed to act on information that the Madagascar ebony it was purchasing may have violated laws intended to limit over harvesting and conserve valuable wood species from Madagascar, a country which has been severely impacted by deforestation,”
-Assistant Attorney General Moreno.

Failure to act IS a crime.

Their employee was told by Madagascar officials, "You can't harvest this ebony."

The employee told Gibson management, "Hey, we can't harvest this ebony."

Gibson management said, "Meh."
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We keep running into this loop. If Gibson committed a crime then why werent they charged with a crime? Accused yes but never formally indicted. Why not? If Gibson got caught with their hands in the cookie jar like you say then why not pursue charges at least? This case never actually saw trial as Gibson was never actually indicted.
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

9unslin9er said:
There's no loop buddy. They paid the fine.

Does it really matter if the case went to criminal court? The last thing Gibson wants is for it to go to criminal court. So they admitted guilt before it even got there.

The whole point is to seize the property and inconvenience the company. Which they did. I don't think Federal Special Forces are expert wood tenders. That stuff probably got manhandled.

If I issue you a vehicle equipment violation and submit an inspection request to the DMV, the real detriment to your life isn't that you are guilty of a busted brake light. It's to make your a$$ stand in line and waste your time.
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It does matter and you know it. Its a big difference between being accused of something and being charged with something. Also please show me where they admitted guilt? And i mean the actual use of the legal term guilty of committing a crime. The documents I linked specifically avoid use of that term for a reason.

Federal special forces? Whats this some new secret squirrel homeland security division? Maybe the wood did get manhandled as you put it. So? It was still returned and we loop around again. IF this wood was so contraband and illegal to harvest how can the government give it back? Since when has any law enforcement agency ever returned contraband? Dope smugglers who plea bargain out of prison dont get their dope returned and it sure isnt sold at police auctions...

Many open questions about this case that are very curious especially if they were so guilty of a crime why would the government choose to not pursue charges...

Federal special forces? Is this some new super secret squirrel team?
 
Re: Why can't I dig on Les Pauls?

9unslin9er said:
S.W.A.T. = Special Weapons and Tactics

Those would be the guys that raided the Gibson factory.

Are you drunk? Do you think some guys in t-shirts and board shorts went into the factory?

“Gibson has acknowledged that it failed to act on information that the Madagascar ebony it was purchasing may have violated laws.”
-Assistant Attorney General Moreno.

Do I have to keep posting this? We're not talking about it going to court.

It's not the wood that's illegal. It's the act of harvesting and importation.
If I tow your car because you are driving under suspension. You still own the car. But you have to pay to get it back.
If I seize your warehouse used for importing and shipping illegal merchandise. I can sell the warehouse back to you.

I'll laugh when you try to bring your rosewood board guitars back through U.S. customs.
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They might informally be called special forces but they are not officially called special forces which is what i was getting at. SWAT does not equal SOF by a long shot.

MAY have violated laws is very different from being GUILTY of violating laws this is why you keep repeating it. You insist that its guilty when the documents say "MAY" There is a large difference between MAY have farted in church and being GUILTY of farting in church.

The car is NOT contraband! Do i need to say that again? If the wood is illegal to import is CONTRABAND!

Why do you keep threatening me with things that might happen to me when I come into the US?

How many rosewood guitars are being seized at the border? The last time I came into the US I had a Jackson neck with rosewood in my carry on luggage. The guy asked what it was I told him It was a guitar neck and I didnt want to check it for fear of it getting broken. Guess what he did? He said "Good idea" and handed the bag back to me. Sorry maybe the customs officals at Seatac arent so vigilant but he definitely wasnt concerned by its presence.
 
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