Why is it that....

Why is it that....

It's because Gibson loyalists think there's some kind of magical pixie dust in their guitars that only the makers at the Gibson factory possess. There's another thread right now with a link to a guy who built that raspberry quilted guitar - you think a guy with those skills couldn't put together a Les Paul that wasn't as good or better than a real Gibson if he put his mind to it?
All I'm going to say is that I just bought an LP Jr DC, which is my first ever Gibson. I've already had to lube the nut to solve tuning instability and I may have to buy a fret file to clean up the fret ends. I have NEVER had to do these things to any of my Fenders - and this Gibson was more expensive.
In the end, a good guitar is a good guitar, and a crap guitar is a crap guitar. There's lots of junk Partscasters out there that were assembled from premium parts. There's also ones that are custom shop level quality. LP style guitars are no different. Just take the guy who says his Squier Classic Vibe is as good as a custom shop tele with a grain of salt.
 
Re: Why is it that....

Powdered Toast Man said:
All I'm going to say is that I just bought an LP Jr DC, which is my first ever Gibson. I've already had to lube the nut to solve tuning instability and I may have to buy a fret file to clean up the fret ends. I have NEVER had to do these things to any of my Fenders - and this Gibson was more expensive.
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I'd be willing to bet that it's all about the nut on that one. I don't think I've ever bought a new guitar with a standard nut where that factory nut didn't need to be replaced or at least just tweaked. The used ones I've bought mostly had aftermarket nuts already installed, or else they were plastic junk that I didn't bother replacing before I got rid of the guitar.

Sometimes I think a standard nut on most guitars is a lot like the batteries that come with the remote in a DVD player. They're always the cheapest thing they can find, tossed in without much thought, to get you up and running. As soon as they die (or as soon as you realize they're not cut very well), you'll replace them with something for the long haul.
 
Re: Why is it that....

I have a fake.Got burned when I first started playing. Didn't cost alot.I thought I was trading some gear for a used, beanten up Gibson and thats when its NOT funny.
I still have it along with my VOS 57 RI Custom and my 71 Deluxe.I still play it sometimes,its plays and sounds pretty good. Reminds me to do my homework.Its on the right with the Rio Grands.
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Re: Why is it that....

LatsMcGee said:
I think when push comes to shove some people just really hate Asians.......
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That's probably true, especially if you're talking about the kind of knuckle-dragging buffoon who won't eat Chinese food or Mexican food because he considers it un-American. (Like my own father, for example.)

I dislike cheap copies, in general. Make a cheap copy of a Strat or a PRS, and I'll look down my nose at it every bit as much. Make it in the Czech Republic, South America, or your basement in Central Indiana, and it won't change my opinion.

But if you're a Japanese company who make their best guitars in Japan -- guitars that happen to be some of the best of their kind ever made -- you're not taking a back seat to anyone.

And I despise counterfeits. Make your guitar, if you must, but don't try to pass it off as someone else's guitar.

Make a really good copy, make one that's better than the "real thing", and you're worthy of much respect. Put your own name on it. Be proud of it. But try to keep a lid on going around and badmouthing the company that inspired the design. Don't go around saying, "Well, my parts-paul is better than any Gibsoncaster I've ever played. They build overpriced junk." You're not going to win friends that way, but you may influence a lot of good people to think you're an ass. Just stick to the positive. You built a great guitar. Focus on that.
 
Re: Why is it that....

:picture:
Warheart said:
People seem to HATE the idea of a cheap LP copy, yet still support the idea of putting one together yourself?

I remember a thread about a LP copy from a guy that was a blue and had fake abalone binding or something, and the thread got to like 5 pages from people bashing it because it was a Chinese made LP copy?
(I can't find this thread now)

Yet at the same time, I noticed this thread from ErikH about Precision Guitar Kits:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=216853

and Metal Maniac's thread about the Dixie Jackson Kelly copy:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=212765&highlight=Jackson+Kelly&page=3

and everyone doesn't care that those are copies? What about anything from Warmoth and Stewmac?

(no ill towards Metal Maniac or ErikH, I'm not saying anything bad about what they're doing/looking at doing, and personally, I don't care. More power to you!)
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You can't make a genuine Gibson Les Paul outside of the Gibson factory. They are a work of art, a culmination of a multitude of creative inputs, and regardless of how badly one would like to clone one, it can't be done. They're an icon, an entity by and of themselves. There are, admittedly, guitars that are probably made better, probably sound better, but there is no replacing the holy grail of guitars. And I don't even like them that much. I'm an SG man...
 
Re: Why is it that....

Hellion said:
:picture:

You can't make a genuine Gibson Les Paul outside of the Gibson factory. They are a work of art, a culmination of a multitude of creative inputs, and regardless of how badly one would like to clone one, it can't be done. They're an icon, an entity by and of themselves. There are, admittedly, guitars that are probably made better, probably sound better, but there is no replacing the holy grail of guitars. And I don't even like them that much. I'm an SG man...
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Exactly. If I want a Gibson, I buy a Gibson. If I want something else, I buy something else.
 
Re: Why is it that....

Empty Pockets said:
whereas a cheap Strat copy is often just as good if not better

.
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Your obviously not a Strat guy. Ive never seen a cheap fender as good or better than an expensive one.
Ive got close to 5 years experience now putting together and setting up Strats. Of course you can You can build cheapo mutts, sure, and Dixie is one, and some are very good, but my best parts-casters are every bit as expensive as normal Amercian stds. and dlxs... I just cheat cause I hunt for good used premium parts, and in the end I have what i believe to be a better Strat with better quality neck, pickups, and general parts than your run of the mill Dlx. American...and in some instances approaching custom shop quality for way less.
Do they have screwdriver marks and stuff? sure-mine do still, but in the end what matters is quality, fit, finish and tone. Fit and finish is one artea where a American Fender always has the edge..but I've got very good at making my parts guitars play and fit as good or better than a Fender .
Look, a parts caster will never sound as good as a vintage Fender..niether will a 5 thousand dollar custom shop. The Custom shop will be the best instrument available NOW.
One of the main reaosns for an assembly is to pick your choice of frets, pickups, woods, tuners, radius, and thats why I do it too.You cannot get a stock Fender non custom shop to have those appointments.
And oh yeah, the fake fender decal is the crowning glory , especially to a custom assembled relic or closet classic.

( ironically, I've found a good Tele actually harder to fake).

As far as Gibsons, I can't help you there. Gibsons don't relic- they only lose value compared to an identical one in better condition. I never look at a worn Gibson and think- cool relic,like a old Strat./.. only that its beat.

As far as copies.. A Gibson copy will never be gibson quality, unless its a true luthier expertly crafted instrument.
 
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Re: Why is it that....

Hellion said:
:picture:

You can't make a genuine Gibson Les Paul outside of the Gibson factory. They are a work of art, a culmination of a multitude of creative inputs, and regardless of how badly one would like to clone one, it can't be done. They're an icon, an entity by and of themselves. There are, admittedly, guitars that are probably made better, probably sound better, but there is no replacing the holy grail of guitars. And I don't even like them that much. I'm an SG man...
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Slash's fake gibson is an icon. Its the les paul that many others are measured by. Even when people know its a fake its still held in high regard. Sorry but the design is 60 years old there is no secret multitude of creative inputs it was Les Paul telling gibson to make him a solid jazz box.

I will admit that anything made outside the gibson factory is not a genuine gibson but thats just a name and a place. Iam willing to bet that they can be cloned to the point that you cant tell the difference. Apparently the Slash guitar is one such instrument.
 
Re: Why is it that....

marantz1300 said:
I have a fake.Got burned when I first started playing. Didn't cost alot.I thought I was trading some gear for a used, beanten up Gibson and thats when its NOT funny.
I still have it along with my VOS 57 RI Custom and my 71 Deluxe.I still play it sometimes,its plays and sounds pretty good. Reminds me to do my homework.Its on the right with the Rio Grands.
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That completely blows. That's why I don't believe in counterfeit guitars.
 
Re: Why is it that....

The Gibson Les Paul is an object of desire. People plain WANT them. This affects the price that they fetch.

Simple supply and demand means that the price is high. (Constructional reasons mean that the price was going to be high anyhow.) People STILL WANT them.

Not all of the people who want one can afford one. This creates a market for cost conscious immitations. Purchasers continue to aspire to the genuine article.

Unscrupulous people alter the cost conscious immitations to more closely resemble the object of desire. Gullible people delude themselves into thinking that they have stumbled onto a bargain. For the purchaser, there then follows a short period of elation followed by a sickening realisation of having been duped.

This could apply equally to guitars, a car, a house, "controlled substances", anything.

At least, in the case of electric guitars, it is possible to analyse what goes into them. Armed with this information and the necessary tools, it is possible to build something to the same - if not, higher - standards. This route will save you no money and the finished product will be harder to sell than the object of desire.

All of this just goes to show that People Are Nuts. Get used to it.
 
Re: Why is it that....

For the record, I own a few Gibsons.. as well as Fenders etc.. I have observed that there tends to be a 'taboo' mentality about copying a Les Paul vs. copying a Strat.. perhaps an element of narcissism?

Narcissistic Personality Disorder - An individual with this disorder is in love with himself/herself, and has little positive regard for others other than in a superficial manner. They tend to be grandiose in how they present themselves, and tend to demand admiration from others.They believe they are special and deserve special treatment, regardless of the problems this creates for others. They readily take advantage of others, and tend to be quite arrogant. In actuality, they are very sensitive, and tend to not be able to tolerate any criticism or negative feedback. They usually seek treatment because they are frustrated in getting what they want. However, they often do not seek treatment, because they perceive everyone else as causing the problems, not themselves.

I post this 'tongue in cheek' -- but let's be real.. we know there's a double standard that exists.. I look my nose down at alot of Asian imports.. but the reality is.. they're getting better all the time, esp from some of the South Korean factories.. and that threatens your average Joe who spent a pretty penny on his treasured USA Gibson(s), myself included..

That being said.. counterfeiters should be hanged, dragged thru the streets, then burned at the stake..
 
Re: Why is it that....

TeleLubber said:
counterfeiters should be hanged, dragged thru the streets, then burned at the stake..
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I prefer my counterfeiters well done and, if possible, marinated in Dave's Gourmet Insanity Chilli Sauce.
 
Re: Why is it that....

Edgecrusher said:
Slash's fake gibson is an icon. Its the les paul that many others are measured by. Even when people know its a fake its still held in high regard. Sorry but the design is 60 years old there is no secret multitude of creative inputs it was Les Paul telling gibson to make him a solid jazz box.

I will admit that anything made outside the gibson factory is not a genuine gibson but thats just a name and a place. Iam willing to bet that they can be cloned to the point that you cant tell the difference. Apparently the Slash guitar is one such instrument.
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You know, respectfully, that just isn't cutting it for me. Slash's fake Gibson is still just a fake. It's a very well made and playable instrument, but once the word got out to me that it wasn't original, I just lost interest. And I'm sorry, but I don't remember ever hearing at any time that Slash's fake Gibson was an icon or that it was the bar standard for ANY LPs at any time. The design is 60 years old, but there's no way to improve on that design. And I get your statement about anything made outside of the Gibby factory not being a fully fledged Gibson, but that's kind of the point. It may just be a name and a price, but there's a lot of tried and true operations that simply can't be improved upon, regardless of how well the axe is made.
 
Re: Why is it that....

Reminds me of the new release Kramer Baretta.
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As a Kramer Kollecter I find this guitar insulting to what a Baretta is. They had taken a guitar that was a icon of 80's guitar players and turned it into a $99 POS. Seeing that Baretta rounded body with POS trem on there is too much for me. Gibson can shove it right up the old tail pipe for makin a MIC POS and calling it a Baretta. I absolutely hate gibson owns the name Kramer.

Just another counterfeit guitar produced by a name brand company. To me it's the same as people in china putting Gibson's name on POS guitars. Here in the USA putting the Kramer name on POS guitars. Difference is here in the USA Gibson can because they own the name. I see it though as both the Chinese and Gibson are both POS counterfeiters.
 
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Re: Why is it that....

JOLLY said:
My only problem with that guitar is that it was a counterfeit guitar and had Gibson written across the headstock and was being represented as an actual Gibson. I have no problem with any copies of any guitars as long as they aren't represented as the actual guitar that they are trying to copy. Basically what I am saying is, I don't have a problem with anything as long as it's not a countertfeit.
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+1. You know that most of those with Gibson decals are eventually going to sold as Gibsons, either by the original owner, or someone else down the line. That's just not right.
 
Re: Why is it that....

LatsMcGee said:
I think when push comes to shove some people just really hate Asians.......
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Well, they seem to make most of the stuff we buy today, just about anywhere you go. Lord knows they're hard-working people, and I'm sure they take pride in what they do. Just because a few businessmen decide to pass off fakes as originals, don't blame the worker in the factory, he's trying to feed his family. Same thing with quality, they'll produce at the quality level they're given the raw materials, tools, and training for. If it's made in Asia and sold in the USA, it probably means some Americans set the specs. That could be where some of the problems lie. Maybe we don't have to look all the way overseas to find some of the culprits.

Even with Chinese drywall. It seems odd that none of the American companies that bought boatloads of the stuff bothered to have their quality control people check what they were buying. Millions of dollar's worth, all taken on good faith. That's hard to believe. If you resell something, don't you have an obligagtion to know what you're selling? Wouldn't you be curious to see you're getting your money's worth? You're as responsible as the manufacturer if there's problems.
 
Re: Why is it that....

Vengeance said:
Reminds me of the new release Kramer Baretta.
attachment.php


As a Kramer Kollecter I find this guitar insulting to what a Baretta is. They had taken a guitar that was a icon of 80's guitar players and turned it into a $99 POS. Seeing that Baretta rounded body with POS trem on there is too much for me. Gibson can shove it right up the old tail pipe for makin a MIC POS and calling it a Baretta. I absolutely hate gibson owns the name Kramer.

Just another counterfeit guitar produced by a name brand company. To me it's the same as people in china putting Gibson's name on POS guitars. Here in the USA putting the Kramer name on POS guitars. Difference is here in the USA Gibson can because they own the name. I see it though as both the Chinese and Gibson are both POS counterfeiters.
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This sort of thing happens a lot, and not just with guitars. In electronics, once-prestigious names that used to mean quality have changed hands so many times that they're now literally just trademarks that carry nothing else with them. It's a shame; it really is. I really wish Gibson took the Kramer brand seriously enough to go head-to-head with Fender's Charvel and Jackson. I love all three shredders, and it would be awesome to see them all alive and well and being produced in Asia and in the US.
 
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