Why no output in millivolts?

[Aceman]

Why doesn't Duncan put output in millivolts in the pup specs? I don't have a good sense of the resistance thing they list....can anyone explain the relation of resistance to power? Is that even a sensible question? I have trouble working with those bars for output in the chart? What levels make for good balance?

 

[beandip]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

check out the FAQ on the main page for some help on explaining the output in resistance. The reason millivolts arnt used in pickups is because they're inaccurate. They can tell you something about a pickup that isnt true, and they can fluctuate randomly.

 

[ranalli]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

Millivolts are extremely accurate I've found in finding the output of pickups relative to each other. For instance if I've tried a SuperDistortion and that's around 425mV I can easily tell how hot a PAF Pro is when they say it's around 300mV or so. Really takes away the guessing game.

Also, Duncan had to come up with values for the output graphs from somewhere.....so there has to be a quantitative value associated with output...and it's not DC resistance.

 

[rspst14]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

Millivolts aren't used because there are too many variables that can influence the reading. If all guitars were built, wired, and set up 100% alike, then it might be useful. But there's no accepted method to take the measurements. Resistance will give you a general idea of the output. The higher the resistance, the hotter the pickup. It's not a fool proof method, but it will give you a rough estimate of output. An 8k pickup isn't going to be a distortion pickup, just like a 16k pickup isn't going to sound like a PAF.

Ryan

 

[ranalli]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

It's assumed that the same setup is used when publishing mV....I don't know why anyone would do it any other way. That would paint a very clear picture with no uncertainly as to the hot-ness of pickups relative to each other.

DC resistance on the other hand is fairly vague. You have two ~16K pickups....that are not the same output at all. It's just too much guessing.

The bottom line is that Duncan had to come up with values for the output bars of those charts from somewhere....and they're certainly not from DC resistance.

As silly as Dimarzio is sometimes, the one thing they do right is use mV when describing output. It gives a very quantitative answer to the output question and there is no guessing when choosing their pickups based on output.

 

[Curly]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

I think it's a good enough idea. I'd expect the reading to be expressed as output in relation to the input.

since I don't have the technical knowledge, I'm gonna guess that, as others have stated, there are a number of variables. for instance, you can measure resistance of a pickup out of the guitar, however the output will be affected by pot values, among other things.

 

[vegetablejoe]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

So how exactly can we measure mV of a pickup, on our own?

I know that for dc resistance, I can measure the pickup's reading. But then the reading can vary if the pickup is already hooked up to the guitar.

Is there a similar process for measuring mV that some of you can share? Thanks!

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

I could be wrong, but aren't milivolts measured when the string is plucked, vibrates and interacts with the magnetic field of the pickup causing it to induce current? So if the string was plucked harder the milivolt reading would be higher than if the string was plucked lightly? Lew

 

[Simon_F]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

I could be wrong, but aren't milivolts measured when the string is plucked, vibrates and interacts with the magnetic field of the pickup causing it to induce current? So if the string was plucked harder the milivolt reading would be higher than if the string was plucked lightly? Lew

That's what I've always believed - the harder you hit the strings the more millivolts. So millivolts aren't just an attribute of the pickup, but also of the strings, pick, player etc. If this is not the case, what else accounts for being able to control the amount of tube amp distortion by playing hard or soft?

 

[Artie]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

I could be wrong, but aren't milivolts measured when the string is plucked, vibrates and interacts with the magnetic field of the pickup causing it to induce current? So if the string was plucked harder the milivolt reading would be higher than if the string was plucked lightly? Lew

Exactly. Although, there is merit in making a "pickup calibrator" - which I'm working on now.

One way, would be to clamp a pick in vertically mounted slide, that would drop across the strings from a calibrated height. Then capture the output on a digital scope. The problem with that is, would you select the peak voltage of the initial attack, or average the output over some time?

The better way, I believe, is to vibrate a small metal armature over the pickup at a calibrated frequency and amplitude, and use that as a reference.
Thats what I'm working on now. I hope to have the first prototype done by the new year.

Artie

(If you see a model RT2 Pickup Calibrator hit the market - you'll know I succeeded.) :laugh2:

 

[mongrollo]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

I could be wrong, but aren't milivolts measured when the string is plucked, vibrates and interacts with the magnetic field of the pickup causing it to induce current? So if the string was plucked harder the milivolt reading would be higher than if the string was plucked lightly? Lew

You are right... That it is the reason why output can't be mesured in milivolts. To make a resonable mesured in milivolts you have to put all the ingredients that contribute to your tone in the same way: polepieces height, guitar wood, pick material, strings... etc. Then the string should be plucked with the same strenth. If everything it is the same then the value in milivolts will tell you something. Problems comes when you go the real world where everything it is completelly different and completelly depends on the guitar player.
Then it is more "accurated" to give an estimated value than a fixed value in milivolts which, in the end, doesn't tell you anything.

 

[ranalli]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

Exactly. Although, there is merit in making a "pickup calibrator" - which I'm working on now.

One way, would be to clamp a pick in vertically mounted slide, that would drop across the strings from a calibrated height. Then capture the output on a digital scope. The problem with that is, would you select the peak voltage of the initial attack, or average the output over some time?

The better way, I believe, is to vibrate a small metal armature over the pickup at a calibrated frequency and amplitude, and use that as a reference.
Thats what I'm working on now. I hope to have the first prototype done by the new year.

Artie

(If you see a model RT2 Pickup Calibrator hit the market - you'll know I succeeded.) :laugh2:

Excellent!!!!

 

[ranalli]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

You are right... That it is the reason why output can't be mesured in milivolts. To make a resonable mesured in milivolts you have to put all the ingredients that contribute to your tone in the same way: polepieces height, guitar wood, pick material, strings... etc. Then the string should be plucked with the same strenth. If everything it is the same then the value in milivolts will tell you something. Problems comes when you go the real world where everything it is completelly different and completelly depends on the guitar player.
Then it is more "accurated" to give an estimated value than a fixed value in milivolts which, in the end, doesn't tell you anything.

Which is why millivolts are published by the pickup company where they can control these things. I imagine this is what Dimarzio does as I find their numbers very accurate when comparing Dimarzio pickups.

 

[Metalblaze]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

I measured the output of my Steve's Special while it's on the guitar with a multimeter. I put one probe to the ground and the other to the output wire of the pickup. I played lightly and hardly and the output was from 50mV to 560mV (maybe it will be a little diferent when the pickup is not connected), while DiMarzio says 390mV. So mVs cannot be used for determinig the exact output of the pickup.
But if a company make a test to all of the models with the same parameters it would be useful for us to know the relative output between the pickup models. This output will be a number that reflect the test made by the company and won't be the absolut output of the pickup. Just a comparing tool.

 

[ranalli]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

But if a company make a test to all of the models with the same parameters it would be useful for us to know the relative output between the pickup models. This output will be a number that reflect the test made by the company and won't be the absolut output of the pickup. Just a comparing tool.

Exactly, and this is what it is best suited for. I'll let all those people with with the DC resistance values try to figure out how hot the pickup is even though the magnet plays a role, etc.

Because everyone's setup is different, all that is really useful is output relative to other pickups....which is why mV is so useful. It gives you a definitive value on output of pickups relative to each other.....making it very easy to choose the right one without having to guess why two pickups with different outputs have the same DC Resistance value.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

It's assumed that the same setup is used when publishing mV....I don't know why anyone would do it any other way. ....

Sorry, but I think you´re assuming this. In fact, being part of "the industry" myself, I´m pretty sure it´s that way.....

The industry has AFAIK no standard guitar (think: ONE SINGLE GUITAR, not a series of 10 or more, because each piece of wood resonates differently), string guage, string material and construction, string manufacturer, pick strength, pick material, pick manufacturer, picking strength, direction of pick stroke, tuning, pickup height relative to the string, wire length(yes, this also effects it by adding capacitance and increasing the distance between) the "+ and - poles", ROOM TEMPERATURE, .... that they at some time "set" as a standard for measuring output im Millivolts. But all of these factors affect the reading, and exactly that is the reason that not all manufacturers use them as a measurement. As you can see, this measurement requires quite a bit of control over the conditions to be reliable, and much more to be usable "between manufacturers".

Nor has the Industry set a standard for calibration of these results such as Artie suggested. His idea is of course great, but again, the Industry hasn´t done it yet. It´s like the truck (for laymen: "axle") manufacturers in the early days of skateboarding. Early on, decks were undrilled when you bought them. Why? Because no one had standardized truck baseplates. As soon as that happened, decks started coming pre-drilled....

While the measurements ARE usually representative of realtive output between pickups of one manufacturer, until a standard as outlined (there´s much more than that bit I posted) they´re more or less useless as soon as you start looking at another manufacturers´s catalog. Ballpark precision at best

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

Perhaps a numbered scale would be the best measurement of output. Hey, it works for volume, bass, treble, mid, gain, etc...

 

[ranalli]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

Sorry, but I think you´re assuming this. In fact, being part of "the industry" myself, I´m pretty sure it´s that way.....

The industry has AFAIK no standard guitar (think: ONE SINGLE GUITAR, not a series of 10 or more, because each piece of wood resonates differently), string guage, string material and construction, string manufacturer, pick strength, pick material, pick manufacturer, picking strength, direction of pick stroke, tuning, pickup height relative to the string, wire length(yes, this also effects it by adding capacitance and increasing the distance between) the "+ and - poles", ROOM TEMPERATURE, .... that they at some time "set" as a standard for measuring output im Millivolts. But all of these factors affect the reading, and exactly that is the reason that not all manufacturers use them as a measurement. As you can see, this measurement requires quite a bit of control over the conditions to be reliable, and much more to be usable "between manufacturers".

Nor has the Industry set a standard for calibration of these results such as Artie suggested. His idea is of course great, but again, the Industry hasn´t done it yet. It´s like the truck (for laymen: "axle") manufacturers in the early days of skateboarding. Early on, decks were undrilled when you bought them. Why? Because no one had standardized truck baseplates. As soon as that happened, decks started coming pre-drilled....

While the measurements ARE usually representative of realtive output between pickups of one manufacturer, until a standard as outlined (there´s much more than that bit I posted) they´re more or less useless as soon as you start looking at another manufacturers´s catalog. Ballpark precision at best

It would be nice if the industry came across with some type of standard but the fact that it's not going to happen anytime soon does not diminish the inherent value of specifying mV's within ones own product line. Why have customers guess the output of your own product line when a little quantitative work would buy you so much certainty?? The fact that those numbers are not useful when comparing to another brand does not mean they are not useful period.

Furthermore, I'd like to hear how SD came up with their output bar charts....if not mVs then what are those "values" or bars derived from??

I'm sorry, but as far as what I've seen so far, mVs are THE way to go when describing relative output between pickups. THe manufacturer makes the standard for their company and that benefits their customers if no one else....it's much better than what we have now on the Duncan side of things as far as output measurement.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

...The fact that those numbers are not useful when comparing to another brand does not mean they are not useful period.

Which, if you read my post again, you´ll see that I also stated (last paragraph).

Furthermore, I'd like to hear how SD came up with their output bar charts....if not mVs then what are those "values" or bars derived from??

My guess would be subjective listening and playing tests, but I don´t work for SD

 

[Metalblaze]

Re: Why no output in millivolts?

There are a lot of parameters to control, but if the most of them can be controled I think the measurment differencies won't be so big.

How these mV outputs came for the basslines by SD?

http://www.seymourduncan.com/website/products/bassesdescr.shtml