Why tone controls set so low??

[Dave Locher]

Thanks to the internet I now know that a LOT of players don't have their tone controls on their amps set very high. Things like Bass 4, Mids 4, Treble 5 seem pretty common. Sometimes I even see "I turn my Bass off"
For the past 40 years I have always pegged at least one of the controls (usually Bass) and then set the others to work with that. I might end up with Bass 10, Mids 8, Treble 8 (or whatever works for that particular amp). This is over several amps, tube and solid state.
Two questions:

1) Why do so many players set them so low?

2) Why does it sound so different to have all the knobs at 10 compared to all the knobs at 1? I don't really "get" amp circuits but it seems like Bass/Mids/Treble all set really low should sound the same as all set really high but with lower overall volume?

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

1.

Guitar amp tone controls kinda all work together. If you time all the controls you get a different sound than if you set them all at noon. Depending on your tastes, you might get a sound you like better from a given starting point.

Personally, I've gone back and forth between diming all the controls and then rolling back the ones that I want less of (usually bass and treble) or setting them all at noon and then boosting/cutting as necessary. Lately I've been doing the latter. I tend to adjust stuff in the middle of a gig if I don't like how they're sounding, so it's nice to have a little extra room to boost/cut something if you need it. If you want more mids you can just turn the mids up a touch . . . rather than guessing how much to turn down the bass and treble.


2.

Although they're labelled 'Bass', 'Mid', and 'Treble' the tone stack on amps is only loosely correlated with the bass, middle, and treble of an amp. Many of these circuits were either copied from other types of amps, or simply chosen because of the availability of parts back in the day. The way they load signal really adds a lot to the character of an amp. Download the program on this website and it can give you an idea how different settings effect the sound on different amps: http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/

And that's not even getting into the 'Presence' knob . . . which behaves very differently depending on whether you amp is distorted or clean.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

Although they're labelled 'Bass', 'Mid', and 'Treble' the tone stack on amps is only loosely correlated with the bass, middle, and treble of an amp. Many of these circuits were either copied from other types of amps, or simply chosen because of the availability of parts back in the day. The way they load signal really adds a lot to the character of an amp. Download the program on this website and it can give you an idea how different settings effect the sound on different amps: http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/

And that's not even getting into the 'Presence' knob . . . which behaves very differently depending on whether you amp is distorted or clean.

Came to post this. Play with the bass/middle/treble on a Marshall or Fender tone stack to see its not even close to a graphic EQ. 2/2/2 and 8/8/8 look completely different.

Bass is nearly always correlated to volume. As amps get louder they get flubbier so you’ve got to pull back bass to clean it up. At low volumes bass response is usually lower so you’ve got to bring it back up to compensate. For treble, full tilt can be too strident, and it’s usually the easiest one to set. Enough cut without too much harshness. The midrange kind of falls where it will at this point. Of course all to taste.

 

[LLL]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

1) Why do so many players set them so low?

Got me, man... I dime all my controls (including volume) except bass (0-2) on my plexi.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

I’m of the mindset that you should set your knobs with you ears and not your eyes.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

Got me, man... I dime all my controls (including volume) except bass (0-2) on my plexi.

Good example! Does a plexi have massive low end or something? Marshall is always the amp where people say things like "I turn the bass off" which is pretty close to what you are saying.

I don't dime everything, but I feel like I'm not really getting the full amp if I'm not diming something. I ended up not buying it, but way back when I spent an hour or so with a blackface Fender Twin and I had all the tone controls cranked full up on that thing within a few minutes. Same with a Bassman I tried out. Most amps it's just one control, sometimes two, but I don't think "everything up" is weird like everything DOWN is?

I feel like the "start at noon and adjust to taste from there" is some sort of cultural thing that just didn't exist 30 or 40 years ago? But I might have just been totally unaware of it at the time. And after reading a casual mention of "the classic B/M/T 5/5/5 setting" Aceman made in another thread I tried it on my Randall (which is a straight Marshall JCM copy but with fet's instead of tubes) and it was pretty rocking, but then I turned the bass and mids back up to where I usually keep them.

 

[BlueSnMettle]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

I’m of the mindset that you should set your knobs with you ears and not your eyes.

This. It also depends on the guitar I’m using.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

1.

Guitar amp tone controls kinda all work together. If you time all the controls you get a different sound than if you set them all at noon. Depending on your tastes, you might get a sound you like better from a given starting point.

Personally, I've gone back and forth between diming all the controls and then rolling back the ones that I want less of (usually bass and treble) or setting them all at noon and then boosting/cutting as necessary. Lately I've been doing the latter. I tend to adjust stuff in the middle of a gig if I don't like how they're sounding, so it's nice to have a little extra room to boost/cut something if you need it. If you want more mids you can just turn the mids up a touch . . . rather than guessing how much to turn down the bass and treble.


2.

Although they're labelled 'Bass', 'Mid', and 'Treble' the tone stack on amps is only loosely correlated with the bass, middle, and treble of an amp. Many of these circuits were either copied from other types of amps, or simply chosen because of the availability of parts back in the day. The way they load signal really adds a lot to the character of an amp. Download the program on this website and it can give you an idea how different settings effect the sound on different amps: http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/

And that's not even getting into the 'Presence' knob . . . which behaves very differently depending on whether you amp is distorted or clean.

1. I see the logic of that approach, but noon is actually higher than some players seem to be running their knobs.
2. I kinda figured it was something along those lines, but thanks for the link to the cool/fun toy. I shall geek out to it a bit.

p.s. Presence I have NEVER turned to 10 on ANY amp that has it! Below noon always, sometimes all the way off.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

I’m of the mindset that you should set your knobs with you ears and not your eyes.

I usually use my fingers, but whatever floats your boat...:?:

Seriously, though, I HAVE been trying to get past any preconceived notions I have about how things "should" be set but turning things down too much sounds as wrong to my ears as it looks to my eyes.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

I usually have the treble around 5 on my Super, bass very low, mids around 4, if I’m playing quietly. It sounds like ass with everything dimed.

Incidentally, I think I prefer the single Shape knob on my Micro Terror. It takes no time to get it sounding great.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

I usually have the treble around 5 on my Super, bass very low, mids around 4, if I’m playing quietly. It sounds like ass with everything dimed.

Incidentally, I think I prefer the single Shape knob on my Micro Terror. It takes no time to get it sounding great.

Very close to the so called “Magic Six” setting...

http://www.singlecoil.com/docs/magic-six.pdf

 

[FuseG4]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

If I'm running straight into my 68 custom Princeton reverb I set bass on ten and treble between 8 and 10. Telecasters need plenty of bass and the amp doesn't put out a ton in the first place!

In my supersonic 22, the amp is solid state rectified, has a bigger transformer and bigger speaker, bigger cab, more efficient phase inverter etc leading to a much more solid bass sound that can get boomy or muddy at high volume so it sits more like 6 or 7 for bass. It has more treble too with the bright cap so that gets backed off too.

If I'm going for a darker clean or jazzy sound, bass and treble on one or two, which is closer to flat because of how the tone stack works, to accentuate the mids you must subtract bass and treble.

 

[ibanezrocks]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

The preamp EQ circuits are usually passive, in the sense that anything less than full is bleeding signal away. So I've also never understood people thinking setting them to "noon" or halfway is neutral. I've always had better results diming everything and then rolling back based on the sound.

Resonance and presence are obviously exceptions.

Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

Muddiness is a big problem with today's high output pickups and high gain amps, plus people tending to use lots of pedals. That's probably why you see bass and mids that tend to be set low on amps. It increases clarity and cut.

The bass setting on an amp tends to have a big effect on how the other tone knobs behave. Usually it should be coarsely set first, then mids, then treble. Then you go back and fine tune. If your bass is set high, your amp is putting out a lot more oomph into the power amp, but not necessarily clean oomph that cuts well. It's dirty power stage oomph that smears over things in the mix.

Normally, I run my bass below noon, my mids within a few points of noon (tend to drift the mids lower for humbuckers and higher for single coils), and my treble no lower than noon. But every amp is different, and so is every guitar. For example, on a vintage style Strat, I use more mids than normal, and might dial the treble back to around noon.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

Very close to the so called “Magic Six” setting...

http://www.singlecoil.com/docs/magic-six.pdf

Have you heard Matt Schofield describe how he sets his eq? He cranks the up until there's some hiss, then turns each knob until it hits the sweet spot, where you can hear the hiss sort of change. I tried it, and that's how I arrived at my settings, which I just checked, and are damn near exactly the magic six.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

p.s. Presence I have NEVER turned to 10 on ANY amp that has it! Below noon always, sometimes all the way off.

That was me for a long time . . . but when you are playing higher gain stuff, try cranking the presence. Low gain and it's just a piercing/bright knob. High gain though, it stops being a brightness thing and starts tightening up the sound somehow. Weird control.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

Muddiness is a big problem with today's high output pickups and high gain amps, plus people tending to use lots of pedals.

THAT'S IT! I have never plugged into ANY of the modern high-gain amps and I use no pedals most of the time other than an OD for solo boost!
I literally haven't plugged into a new-model amp since the 1980s, only new "old" models or reissues. No Boogies, no 5150s, nuthin! I think that's a big part of it.

Appreciate all the input in helping me understand and think through this. Maybe for giggles I will try out an amp designed after 1980 and see if I don't wind up below noon on some of the controls...

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

Good example! Does a plexi have massive low end or something? Marshall is always the amp where people say things like "I turn the bass off" which is pretty close to what you are saying.

Depends on the Marshall and it depends on how loud it is being played. Early plexi's such the JTM45 and the JTM45/100 have large coupling caps which let a lot of bass through. I only run the bass at about 2 on my JTM45.

An 800 requires a different approach. With an 800 I run the treble and presence at about 2 and the bass up.

Run loud, you usually run the bass lower on a plexi Marshall. Reportedly Hendrix ran the bass on 2.

A Marshall Jubilee has a very effective tone stack and very small adjustments make a significant difference. With that amp you probably want to start at 5 for each eq knob and make small additions or subtractions from there. Reportedly Joe Bonamassa ran the bass on 10 on the Jubilee with the master volume also on 10. However, the Jubilee has an innovative bass control using a dual pot that doubles as a variable deep switch. Increasing the bass causes the bass to tighten and deepen as more is added.

On the Vintage Modern the detail and body knobs have a greater impact on the tonal balance of the amp than the eq knobs do.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

Have you heard Matt Schofield describe how he sets his eq? He cranks the up until there's some hiss, then turns each knob until it hits the sweet spot, where you can hear the hiss sort of change. I tried it, and that's how I arrived at my settings, which I just checked, and are damn near exactly the magic six.

Yes I have. Matt Schofield probably has one of my favorite tones of the “modern” era. His method of setting an amp/pedal really gives the most dynamic tone out of your gear, it’s pretty cool.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Why tone controls set so low??

Most of tone stack I've encountered tend to lose a lot of frequency response when tone controls set up high. It tends to get less dynamic and too "hi-fi" so to speak. To get full sounding mid-range I have to set them somewhere half way and cut or add from there.

Except with fender stacks, where I just have to remove the bass almost completely and set the treble where it's good but not piercing and then set mids to the sweet spot. I haven't played actual Fender tube amp, but that has been the case with every fender inspired pedal and models I've used.

EDIT: I have tried the everything full approach few times, but it always leads me to dial each of the controls down in turn until they end somewhere between 9 to 15 o'clock.

BTW: To me running bass full tilt more often that not tends to induce nausea