Winding with different materials

[DeathMetalRob]

If anybody does know, is there anything that has to be done to different materials (IE silver) when winding pickups.

The Zephyr (and Hurricane model that I had made) have the silver wire cryogenically treated. Is this essential for the pickup to work or is this just what SD do for the particular models?

Would cryo treatment apply to gold, tungsten, titanium etc..?

Does anybody have any information on the subject or is it a case of try it and see..?

 

[Mincer]

I've never heard about experiments with these metals, but I'd be curious to know this as well, too.

 

[jeremy]

silver wire is very expensive compared to copper, gold would be even more so. the cryo treatment isnt necessary and could be applied to the other metals. i dont think there is a ton of experimentation with this since its so expensive but who knows

 

[Artie]

Callaham guitar parts used to brag about cryo treating their bridges and saddles. Now they don't. I assume they abandoned the process because of its little, or no, benefit.

 

[DeathMetalRob]

I did get some tungsten wire ordered in - the issue with that being was that it worked out to 70AWG and I can barely see it, far less work with it. We'll have to wait for that one.

I have a wind with Nichrome 50AWG but, I understand that the resistance for one foot (based on the SD table) works out to 675 ohms. Assuming an average or 6 inches per single turn on a bobbin,
a standard 5,000 turn pickup would read 3.375M and probably would be a permanent wooly sound - this based on the 'Black Hole' pickup I wound with copper that got to 254k - it was loud and thick but, sounded like the tone control was all the way off - notable seeing as I wired the pickup directly to the jack. This might be corrected with an A2 magnet instead of the C8.

The theory behind it being a potential of cross-material pickups - one coil copper, the other gold for example - then, doing the same for stacks. If no-one tries it, we'll never know.

If it does work, there might be some pickups coming.

 

[DeathMetalRob]

I've never heard about experiments with these metals, but I'd be curious to know this as well, too.

I've not had the Zephyr pickups but, the custom Hurricane 8 string is amazing. Truthfully speaking, it's my girlfriends pickup in her guitar so, it gets used sparingly but, the clarity in the cleans is amazing through her gear - we've recently moved so, not had a chance to give it full run through her echo section as yet.

When I ran it through the Twin Tube Mayhem pedal - it roared with a very deep scooped tone.

I'll see if I can persuade her to play (the guitar)...

 

[jeremy]

is there a reason you didnt try and get #42 or #43 wire? I've never used anything smaller than #44

 

[DeathMetalRob]

is there a reason you didnt try and get #42 or #43 wire? I've never used anything smaller than #44

For the tungsten or in general? I have 42, 43, 44, 46, 48 and 50 in copper. I wind an idea and if it works, I run with it.

Passive only though - while I'd love to do some active winds with 50awg, I don't have the technical ability to make it work where EQ programming etc is concerned.

 

[jeremy]

for tungsten specifically is what i was asking. #48 and #50 may be fun to play with but there arent too many pups out there that ive seen using that thin wire

 

[frankfalbo]

https://www.thoughtco.com/electrical-conductivity-in-metals-2340117

Silver is a better conductor than copper. Anything from gold all the way down this list will, by its nature, make a “worse” pickup. As in, the pickup will perform more poorly across our preferred metrics. It’ll be slower, less clarity, more phase smearing, just overall less efficient. I’m not trying to discourage anyone from experimentation, you just have to understand the principles involved so you manage expectations, or purposely wind a pickup that exploits those drawbacks for a different sound altogether.

Cryo is very real, and can be done to copper or silver. Winding a pickup with wire under tension is somewhat destructive to the surface integrity of the wire, and we know that there is a skin effect to electron flow.

 

[Artie]

. . . and we know that there is a skin effect to electron flow.

It's my understanding that "skin effect" is only relevant to very high frequencies. Not audio frequencies. However, this topic is usually discussed as it pertains to speaker cable, which is much larger gauge. I can see where it might be a factor with the tiny gauge of pickup wire.

 

[DeathMetalRob]

for tungsten specifically is what i was asking. #48 and #50 may be fun to play with but there arent too many pups out there that ive seen using that thin wire

No, not yet

 

[DeathMetalRob]

https://www.thoughtco.com/electrical-conductivity-in-metals-2340117

Silver is a better conductor than copper.

Cryo is very real, and can be done to copper or silver. Winding a pickup with wire under tension is somewhat destructive to the surface integrity of the wire, and we know that there is a skin effect to electron flow.

What audible differences are there cryo and non-cryo treated pickups?

The question is more, does a certain material NEED to be cryogenically treated or can it be used au naturelle..?

It's purely for an experimental model but, it could be used in the future for those who a specialized modification.

 

[DeathMetalRob]

for tungsten specifically is what i was asking. #48 and #50 may be fun to play with but there arent too many pups out there that ive seen using that thin wire

With copper I could do, for example, a coil with 10,000 turns of 50 and another coil full of 42. How it would sound, I guess probably part Slug, part Jazz - I'd have to try it and see. Depending on what magnet, of course.

Would you be interested in such a pickup..?

 

[AlexR]

Winding with different gauges is essentially what has been done with the multitude of hybrids the forum has created of course.
In most/all cases you are adding in clarity compared to a pickup wound to the same output with identical wire gauge.

I guess with your winding you have to ask yourself 'what am I wanting to do?'
Is there something that you are trying to make, or an obstacle in a current wind you want to overcome. I seem to remember past winding threads of yours, so it seems like you wind pickups more than just someone who does it for curiosity's sake.

Going to extremes of gauge I would gues s make 1 coil really thick and dull, and the other very bright. It might miss the middle ground that ties the successful hybrids together so well.

 

[jeremy]

With copper I could do, for example, a coil with 10,000 turns of 50 and another coil full of 42. How it would sound, I guess probably part Slug, part Jazz - I'd have to try it and see. Depending on what magnet, of course.

Would you be interested in such a pickup..?

me personally? no. i basically play blues/rock and use mostly lower output a5 single coils and a2 buckers. i have some hot pups in guitars but i dont use them as much as the lower output stuff. i think its good to experiment and there are lots of people that play more modern music who would be interested in different or more exotic tones

 

[DeathMetalRob]

me personally? no. i basically play blues/rock and use mostly lower output a5 single coils and a2 buckers. i have some hot pups in guitars but i dont use them as much as the lower output stuff. i think its good to experiment and there are lots of people that play more modern music who would be interested in different or more exotic tones

A lower number of turns with 50 could be interesting. It's all experimentation.

I've just bought a fat bladed set to have a go at. Using an A9 magnet for it for the metal tones.

Of course, it's not all about metal playing but, such wire would work well for a jazzy pickup. Something I can research.

 

[DeathMetalRob]

Winding with different gauges is essentially what has been done with the multitude of hybrids the forum has created of course.
In most/all cases you are adding in clarity compared to a pickup wound to the same output with identical wire gauge.

I guess with your winding you have to ask yourself 'what am I wanting to do?'
Is there something that you are trying to make, or an obstacle in a current wind you want to overcome. I seem to remember past winding threads of yours, so it seems like you wind pickups more than just someone who does it for curiosity's sake.

Going to extremes of gauge I would gues s make 1 coil really thick and dull, and the other very bright. It might miss the middle ground that ties the successful hybrids together so well.

With the various materials, I'd like to see what differences there are between standard and non-standard materials. If hybrids can be made, one copper coil + one silver one or any other combination thereof. To put a few together with various gauges against one with one; say for reference a stack coil made from a Slug and an Invader paired with a single coil from a Black Winter or perhaps a '59 and a Phat Cat stack with a JB and '78 stack. That's a possibility even if it is a faff to make.

Just to have the knowledge to hand in case, one day, that one guy comes up an asks for something he thinks is impossible, I can say one way or the other if it can be done.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Fewer turns with heavier-than-average wire is an option too, like the Lollar El Rayo humbucker.
Don't know what gauge Jason uses but they give pretty robust output from only 4K fbridge and 3.75K neck.

As for cryo treatment of silver winding wire, I suspect that could be more about mechanical properties than tone.
Silver has lower tensile strength than copper, so winding thin silver wire under any tension might be troublesome.

 

[DeathMetalRob]

Fewer turns with heavier-than-average wire is an option too, like the Lollar El Rayo humbucker.
Don't know what gauge Jason uses but they give pretty robust output from only 4K fbridge and 3.75K neck.

As for cryo treatment of silver winding wire, I suspect that could be more about mechanical properties than tone.
Silver has lower tensile strength than copper, so winding thin silver wire under any tension might be troublesome.

I have done one of these and sold a couple too. Called the Grimfrost and rates at 3.65k for the bridge model. Very clean and crisp in clean and clean effects (chorus, echo, reverb etc.) but, works as a sweet black metal pickup as well.

The 7 string model needs a bit more work, the 8 string is under testing.